| 8/2/2009 2:24:25 PM | Enlightenment... | | 
shakti
Red Deer, AB
age: 36
| ... stretches across divisive lines.. no ONE religion or spiritual path can claim exclusive rights toward enlightenment.. so I am curious... what is enlightenment to you?
You may include your opinion of the process in getting there, which is always interesting, but my main focus is:
What do you think enlightenment is?
What distinguishes an enlightened person from a non-enlightened person?
Is it an end in and of itself, or a process/journey?
What is the purpose of enlightenment.. ?
Just curious, and thanks for sharing : )
| | 8/2/2009 2:39:58 PM | Enlightenment... | | 
trippy_hare
Arvada, CO
age: 27
| This looks familiar, lol!
anyways:
What do you think enlightenment is?
Enlightenment is a realization of just how deeply connected everything is. Just as a watch only keeps time with every component acting in a very precise way, the Universe has components, and they must behave in specific patterns, in order to allow life to exist at all. I personally see life as one of such components- as such, every living thing is intimately connected to every other living thing. All life is precious, and worth protecting- this, I see as enlightenment.
What distinguishes an enlightened person from a non-enlightened person?
Effort. Enlightenment happens all the time, at the most inopportune moments even. People can be 'struck' by enlightenment out of the blue. This leads me to conclude that non-enlightenment is the active state: meaning, one must consciously seek to avoid it, and put forth effort in to hiding from it, as enlightenment is the natural state.
Is it an end in and of itself, or a process/journey?
I'm not sure. Maybe both.
What is the purpose of enlightenment.. ?
Human beings are strange animals- we possess the means to provide for the entirety of our species, or to destroy every living thing on Earth. This dichotomous nature is always precarious- one misstep, and the only evidence of our existence will be the space probes winding their way through the cold vacuum.
I think enlightenment serves to illuminate the straight and narrow path, that wends its way between apocalypta. It may ultimately lead to an idyllic state, who knows? It only shows the path a few footsteps ahead, but it does not provide every answer. We must still think and reason and strive- enlightenment would be pointless if it made everyone into thoughtless robots.
| | 8/2/2009 2:45:28 PM | Enlightenment... | | 
bigd9832
Bridgeview, IL
age: 56
| This is a very interesting thread shakti. thanks
When I took religion in school, there were certain things that I, and the professor, noticed about many of the Great Religions of the World.
Man is made up of his parts. Body, Mind. and..... Spirit.
Probably all of mankind knows we have a body. We can see that.
Mind is generally accepted. Some just associate it to the Brain.
But Spirit, now this is a different story, as this is not something we can see. It's only been recently that we (as a species) are taking things we can not see seriously. Even so, today there are so many that refuse to believe that we have a Spirit, and therefore refuse to develop it.
But the Great Religions of the World deal with Spirit. Body, Mind, and Spirit are all required to become Self Actualized. When all three parts come in harmony with themselves, and are subject to 'Other.'
Other is something greater than ourselves, and outside of ourselves.
Self Actualized, Moksha, Enlightened, Saved. Perhaps all different perceptions of the same idea? Or different views of the same idea?
| | 8/2/2009 3:30:15 PM | Enlightenment... | | 
gittenby2
Novelty, OH
age: 65
| ... stretches across divisive lines.. no ONE religion or spiritual path can claim exclusive rights toward enlightenment.. so I am curious... what is enlightenment to you?
You may include your opinion of the process in getting there, which is always interesting, but my main focus is:
What do you think enlightenment is?
What distinguishes an enlightened person from a non-enlightened person?
Is it an end in and of itself, or a process/journey?
What is the purpose of enlightenment.. ?
Just curious, and thanks for sharing : )
A. Knowing that you are always naked.
B. An enlightened person lives here.
An unenlightened person exists then and when.
C. It is a journey to here.
D. What is the purpose of sunshine?
| | 8/2/2009 3:54:21 PM | Enlightenment... | | leftfooted
West Covina, CA
age: 50
| Dont think that enlightenment ever ceases to occur,the possibility of always realizing a connection in one way or another just adds to the fullfilment of experiencing its effects.
| | 8/2/2009 4:44:36 PM | Enlightenment... | | 
ourself
Hamilton, ON
age: 37
| ... stretches across divisive lines.. no ONE religion or spiritual path can claim exclusive rights toward enlightenment.. so I am curious... what is enlightenment to you?
You may include your opinion of the process in getting there, which is always interesting, but my main focus is:
What do you think enlightenment is?
I believe enlightenment is seeing that duality is an illusion which allows Us to explore, that everything is an expression of the same thing making Compassion common sense and that Now is the only time there is.
What distinguishes an enlightened person from a non-enlightened person?
Attention is given to every activity. Picture a football player who gives washing the dishes the same attention as throwing a football. An athlete or artist who is always in that "zone" of concentration. What an athlete or an artist calls being in the "zone" is the same thing a Zen master calls being in the Now.
A willingness to learn and a need to help. I believe it was Bernie Glasman who said "We do not learn because we wish to be enlightened, we are enlightened because we wish to learn."
Is it an end in and of itself, or a process/journey?
I think it depends on how one looks at it. The quickest Way to get to where you need to be is to see that you are already there. However, if one thinks that because they are enlightened, there is nothing else to be done, they still have a Ways to go.
Enlightenment isn't something to be gained. It is recognizing what is already there... And then acting on it.
What is the purpose of enlightenment.. ?
Just curious, and thanks for sharing : )
I'm not so sure there has to be a purpose behind enlightenment. I think that because this Wisdom was hidden in the obscurity that is change, remembering it became its' own purpose. Purpose could be something that is made and not found. Kinda makes sense if you're into co-creation.
I think evolution is taking care of this. The brain has developed so much since it first came about. Birds and mammels had to develope the ability to nurture or they would not have adapted. The young need to be helped or they will not survive. In the same Way, if We don't foster a more Compassionate outlook, We will be Our own end. There are more Compassionate people Now than ever and that tide is what will bring Us to a Global Awakening in my honest opinion.
[Edited 8/2/2009 4:53:01 PM PST]
| | 8/2/2009 5:00:49 PM | Enlightenment... | | 
saintgasoline
Saint Louis, MO
age: 27
| I will try to interpret this creatively, as you all know by now my responses aren't likely to be religious! So here is my secular response!
What do you think enlightenment is?
Enlightenment is not too far removed from the use of the term to describe the period of scientific and cultural awakening during the 18th century. Of course, in the past 300 years we have learned that the naive political and scientific optimism of that time period was too idealistic. In a modern context, enlightenment is the journey toward scientific progress and knowledge-building rooted in an empirical, reality-based epistemology, but always cautious not to overlook the imperfections of the world.
What distinguishes an enlightened person from a non-enlightened person?
An enlightened person recognizes that knowledge is never certain, that claims must be provisional an open to revision with new evidence, and that unfettered progress will not be automatically realized merely by prescribing democracy and/or a scientific, rational worldview. People are riddled with cognitive biases, and change is often so rapid and filled with so many variables that we must guard against unwanted consequences. This is why the French revolution in the Enlightenment period led to such travesty, and why simplistic modern attempts to spread "democracy" through military force in nations that aren't ready for self-government has also caused such disaster. This is why our technological progress has led to overpopulation and global warming. Not all change is beneficial, and not all progress guarantees our happiness.
Is it an end in and of itself, or a process/journey?
Enlightenment is a journey, a process of self-realization and understanding of the universe, a method for gaining knowledge and trying to use it in productive ways, but with enough forethought and caution to prevent disaster.
What is the purpose of enlightenment.. ?
It has no purpose, other than the purpose we give to it. How we end up using it will determine everything. Let us hope we use it good and wisely!
| | 8/2/2009 5:03:47 PM | Enlightenment... | |
saintgasoline
Saint Louis, MO
age: 27
|
I think evolution is taking care of this. The brain has developed so much since it first came about. Birds and mammels had to develope the ability to nurture or they would not have adapted. The young need to be helped or they will not survive. In the same Way, if We don't foster a more Compassionate outlook, We will be Our own end. There are more Compassionate people Now than ever and that tide is what will bring Us to a Global Awakening in my honest opinion.
I'd like to think you are correct here, but unfortunately I don't think there's much of a selection pressure for compassion! At least not nearly enough of one for universal compassion. Part of the problem of our evolutionary heritage is that we evolved in such a way to feel compassion only for members of our small in-group or tribe, but to feel bitter revulsion for outsiders and anyone different. We still see this attitude reflected today in the rampant xenophobia and war-mongering that pervades politics.
| | 8/2/2009 5:22:09 PM | Enlightenment... | |
ourself
Hamilton, ON
age: 37
| Saint Gasoline;
I'd like to think you are correct here, but unfortunately I don't think there's much of a selection pressure for compassion! At least not nearly enough of one for universal compassion.
Well, to be fair, Global Compassion is still more further along Now than ever. I think there is as much selective pressure for Compassion as there was for nurturing. As Our technology grows, so must Our Compassion. If We don't foster a more Compassionate outlook, I doubt humans will be around that much longer. We basically have to in order to survive. If that ain't selective pessure, what is?
Part of the problem of our evolutionary heritage is that we evolved in such a way to feel compassion only for members of our small in-group or tribe, but to feel bitter revulsion for outsiders and anyone different. We still see this attitude reflected today in the rampant xenophobia and war-mongering that pervades politics.
Ah, but it's getting better all the time. It is much more common nowadays for an average person to reach out to somebody they don't know. I still think this is because of the age of information.
You're about my age... Do you remember having pen pals in public school? How it took a couple of months to get a reply from somewhere overseas? Now it takes just a couple of minutes. That's a pretty big deal and the difference it makes is staggering.
It is just easier to see how people are people even with the differences.
It just seems to be Naturally flowing that Way.
| | 8/2/2009 11:02:32 PM | Enlightenment... | |
shakti
Red Deer, AB
age: 36
| Enlightenment happens all the time, at the most inopportune moments even. People can be 'struck' by enlightenment out of the blue. This leads me to conclude that non-enlightenment is the active state: meaning, one must consciously seek to avoid it, and put forth effort in to hiding from it, as enlightenment is the natural state.
This reminds me of a zen story I once heard, and your wording conjures for me thoughts of uranus (bit of a weirdo, I tend to think in astrological terms), the whole combination makes me contemplative, love it!
Self Actualized, Moksha, Enlightened, Saved. Perhaps all different perceptions of the same idea? Or different views of the same idea?
This is part of why I continue to search (even though the light was always there at home), because I see overlaps everywhere.. feels like bread crumbs strewn in the moonlight...
A. Knowing that you are always naked.
B. An enlightened person lives here.
An unenlightened person exists then and when.
C. It is a journey to here.
D. What is the purpose of sunshine?
Almost koan-like..
What do you mean by naked exactly? Vulnerable and open?
The purpose of sunshine is.. to shine : )
| | 8/2/2009 11:15:49 PM | Enlightenment... | |
shakti
Red Deer, AB
age: 36
| I think it depends on how one looks at it. The quickest Way to get to where you need to be is to see that you are already there. However, if one thinks that because they are enlightened, there is nothing else to be done, they still have a Ways to go.
Enlightenment isn't something to be gained. It is recognizing what is already there... And then acting on it.
I like this..
Similar to what Trippy had to say.
What he said reminded me of this zen story and I think it fits here too:Carrying water in her bucket she admired the the silent splendor of the reflecting
full moon. And then, the bottom fell out, the water was gone, the moon disappeared.
Chiyono, it is said, became enlightened: She realized herself to be a hollow bamboo,
A flute on the lips of the infinite: An empty bucket.
Finding God, enlightment, had been Chiyono’s life ambition. She wanted to become a monk, a meditator, devoting herself to the search. Because of her physical beauty she was rejected by many monasteries. She burned and scarred her beautiful face.
With her head shaved, disguised as a man she entered the monastery.
Only at night, alone, washing herself, her secret was revealed. For years she lived a simple life of meditation. One night it happened to Chiyono.
In her own words:
’This way and that way
I tried to keep the pail together,
Hoping the weak bamboo
Would never break.
Suddenly the bottom fell out.
No more water,
No more moon in the water_
Emptiness in my hand’.
The "Ultimate Accident"
Not all change is beneficial, and not all progress guarantees our happiness.
Indeed!
Enlightenment is a journey, a process of self-realization and understanding of the universe, a method for gaining knowledge and trying to use it in productive ways, but with enough forethought and caution to prevent disaster.
It has no purpose, other than the purpose we give to it. How we end up using it will determine everything. Let us hope we use it good and wisely!
Nicely said!
You seem more open minded to me now.. but I can't tell if it is you who have changed, or I... odd that...
Anyway, thanks for the responses!
| | 8/2/2009 11:20:49 PM | Enlightenment... | | 
lust4love
Atco, NJ
age: 39
| Let me put it another way. Logic is manmade and so is time. therefore all this jibberish we try to make sense of is merley garbage our minds create.When you think youre enlightened youve earned your degree in Ignorance.
| | 8/2/2009 11:27:04 PM | Enlightenment... | | 
allarrimer
Houston, TX
age: 31
| I think enlightenment is the ability to realize that you are not the absolute difinitive correct way.
maybe the open mind is the path to enlightenment.
to be able to look past others for any differences and respect the cultures that we all have in this world. to be able to transcend our own boundaries and possibly look into anothers heart, if only for a brief moment in time. then and only then will we understand not only ourselves, but possibly our purpose.
I do think the enlightenment is a journey... something to be cherished and admired. a journey that once taken (even if with just a single step) can bring a person closer to a higher tolerance of others....a better clarity of ourselves, and a closer faith to something greater.
whether we look at it as a positive or a negative... that enlightenment has given us everything that we may need to learn better. to have a greater compassion... a better understanding.... a larger empathy.
I would like to think of enlightenment as one word..... LOVE.
| | 8/2/2009 11:30:11 PM | Enlightenment... | |
lust4love
Atco, NJ
age: 39
| I think enlightenment is the ability to realize that you are not the absolute difinitive correct way.
maybe the open mind is the path to enlightenment.
to be able to look past others for any differences and respect the cultures that we all have in this world. to be able to transcend our own boundaries and possibly look into anothers heart, if only for a brief moment in time. then and only then will we understand not only ourselves, but possibly our purpose.
I do think the enlightenment is a journey... something to be cherished and admired. a journey that once taken (even if with just a single step) can bring a person closer to a higher tolerance of others....a better clarity of ourselves, and a closer faith to something greater.
whether we look at it as a positive or a negative... that enlightenment has given us everything that we may need to learn better. to have a greater compassion... a better understanding.... a larger empathy.
I would like to think of enlightenment as one word..... LOVE.
Sorry youre just high on life.youll come down once you get older.youre also hallucinating
| | 8/2/2009 11:36:09 PM | Enlightenment... | |
shakti
Red Deer, AB
age: 36
| Allarimer, absolutely beautiful post! I particularily loved this part: to be able to look past others for any differences and respect the cultures that we all have in this world. to be able to transcend our own boundaries and possibly look into anothers heart, if only for a brief moment in time. then and only then will we understand not only ourselves, but possibly our purpose.
So totally true!
Oh, and lust4love.. refrain from disrespecting others or get out.
[Edited 8/2/2009 11:36:58 PM PST]
| | 8/2/2009 11:41:26 PM | Enlightenment... | |
gittenby2
Novelty, OH
age: 65
| Almost koan-like..What do you mean by naked exactly? Vulnerable and open?
if my memory is correct, the first thing Eve did, even before being cast out of paradise, was to cover herself.
What we wear is an indicator of who and what we believe we are.
The purpose of sunshine is.. to shine : )
Yes, but while it shines:
It give life and light and warmth and vision.
It does so with no regard to good or bad.
It has no beliefs.
It is what it is.
No more - No less
| | 8/2/2009 11:43:56 PM | Enlightenment... | | 
dunrich2
Brantford, ON
age: 55 online now!
| Enlightenment is truth. Where is truth found?
Some where in the middle, so therefore it is a rock.
When I was an aethiest, I was bothered by what i felt was God. Since I have become to believe, down inside I think your delusional; bud, there is really nothing.
For some guy in LA, has a guru, his truth or reality is never harming any thing. For the Peace Keeper in Bosnia, his truth is using his side are to stop some 12 year old Muslim girl from getting "etnically cleansed'.
So whose truth is enlightenmnet? Some where in between. Enilghtenment has no emotions or right or wrong.One mans wrong in LA, is a sentance of gang rape and death for some little girl in Bosnia.
That peace keepers wrong, is wanting to pull the trigger, even after the girl has been removed to sfety. the fact he doesnt pull it is enlightened, while the guy in LA, who doesnt slap a fly, thinks he is enlightened.
Who is right? The rock is right.
It just is, every thing else is just smoke and mirrors. Enlightenment is neutral, it just is, so is simply a rock.
| | 8/2/2009 11:54:34 PM | Enlightenment... | |
shakti
Red Deer, AB
age: 36
| Yes, but while it shines:
It give life and light and warmth and vision.
It does so with no regard to good or bad.
It has no beliefs.
It is what it is.
No more - No less
Ever been in the presence of someone who literally shines? They light up a room and lift those who are down just by showing up. So when I said the purpose of sunshine is to shine.. this is what I was referring to..
Enlightenment is truth. Where is truth found?
Some where in the middle, so therefore it is a rock.
I am not sure I get what you mean..
Are you saying that enlightenment is in the ordinary?
As in, before enlightenment chop wood, carry water and after enlightenment, chop wood carry water.. ?
[Edited 8/2/2009 11:55:17 PM PST]
| | 8/3/2009 12:11:51 AM | Enlightenment... | |
gittenby2
Novelty, OH
age: 65
| Ever been in the presence of someone who literally shines? They light up a room and lift those who are down just by showing up. So when I said the purpose of sunshine is to shine.. this is what I was referring to..
I should have left off the "Yes, but".
It implied disagreement were there was none.
You, by the way, shine.
As in, before enlightenment chop wood, carry water and after enlightenment, chop wood carry water.. ?
I can't answer for Dunn but I would have to say, the above quote is right on. It sounds very Zen.
[Edited 8/3/2009 12:19:09 AM PST]
| | 8/3/2009 12:56:36 AM | Enlightenment... | |
dunrich2
Brantford, ON
age: 55 online now!
| Its just a rock.
You can build a house with rocks, use them as a grave marker, maybe stone some one with one,,,,,, maybe one rock will do all those things.
But it is still just a rock.
| | 8/3/2009 1:26:52 AM | Enlightenment... | | sharedmercy
Fort Wayne, IN
age: 54
| To me, 'enlightenment' means: to become aware...regardless of the subject, and whether the subject is a truth or not.
| | 8/3/2009 2:27:00 AM | Enlightenment... | | contemplatingu
Antigo, WI
age: 55
| Here is my answer to your posted questions, I hope they're acceptable to you.
... stretches across divisive lines.. no ONE religion or spiritual path can claim exclusive rights toward enlightenment.. so I am curious... what is enlightenment to you?
You may include your opinion of the process in getting there, which is always interesting, but my main focus is:
What do you think enlightenment is?
Enlightenment is: A primary tool used to expand mankinds senses to an optimul central unity.
What distinguishes an enlightened person from a non-enlightened person?
The amount of perception in these senses to use enlightenment for it's purpose.
Is it an end in and of itself, or a process/journey?
It is a process/journey. More of a never ending process in that it continually self adapts itself to the level of perception needed for the senses journey.
What is the purpose of enlightenment.. ?
To make perpetual fullness and completeness and destroy those divisive lines.
I'm sure these answers are shallow to you but it's the thought that counts.
| | 8/3/2009 2:40:43 PM | Enlightenment... | |
saintgasoline
Saint Louis, MO
age: 27
| Nicely said!
You seem more open minded to me now.. but I can't tell if it is you who have changed, or I... odd that...
I assure you, I am as stubborn and pigheaded as I always was! I don't think anything has changed that much, as I'm still making the same sorts of arguments that I did with you! I think that perhaps because now you are seeing me argue with other people from the outside looking in, as an observer and not someone mixed up in things, it gives you a little more perspective to see that I'm "open-minded" in terms of making it known that I don't claim absolute certainty and only make provisional claims on the basis of the current level of evidence. I've always said this, but it is easy to read my forceful style of writing as implying certainty---perhaps because I say with absolute certainty that I'm quite uncertain!
I also found it funny when you mentioned that I might seem more agnostic to you now, as that couldn't be further from the truth! Actually, back in the day I considered myself an "agnostic atheist", but now I've moved on to the position that agnosticism is either tantamount to postmodernist jibberish or else atheism in sheep's clothing, a way of calling yourself a disbeliever without all those nasty connotations of atheists being baby-eating, seal-raping marauders with no moral compass. So in truth I'm actually more of an atheist now!
However, I don't rape seals or eat babies. Well, maybe I'll eat the occasional baby seal, but that's all, I swear!
| | 8/3/2009 2:49:34 PM | Enlightenment... | |
saintgasoline
Saint Louis, MO
age: 27
|
D. What is the purpose of sunshine?
That reminds me of a quote from a scientist I once heard. I can't remember who, and Google turns up nothing, but I've read it somewhere before. Anyway, the scientist was accosted by a woman, who asked him, "What is the purpose of all your scientific tinkering?" And he replied, "What is the purpose of a child? It grows into a man."
I really wish I could remember who said that!
| | 8/3/2009 3:09:10 PM | Enlightenment... | | skunkbreath
Saint James, MO
age: 90
| Enlightenment is knowing that sunshine promotes life as we know it and also destroys that life.
It is also the comprehension that creation is an illusion with consequences, upon which we build delusions that may or may not work for us an entire lifetime. Continued enlightenment is the modification of our delusion to incorporate the universe illusion's consequences.
| | 8/3/2009 4:28:48 PM | Enlightenment... | |
shakti
Red Deer, AB
age: 36
| I can't answer for Dunn but I would have to say, the above quote is right on. It sounds very Zen.
It is zen, lol...
I like a good koan, I started a thread on those a while back as well.
Its just a rock.
You can build a house with rocks, use them as a grave marker, maybe stone some one with one,,,,,, maybe one rock will do all those things.
But it is still just a rock.
So it already exists, it all depends upon what you do with it?
To me, 'enlightenment' means: to become aware...regardless of the subject, and whether the subject is a truth or not.
So it is an awareness of truth? I would love it if you answered the questions too : )
Enlightenment is: A primary tool used to expand mankinds senses to an optimul central unity.
This is an interesting way of putting it..
So is it like a realization that we are all interconnected?
It is a process/journey. More of a never ending process in that it continually self adapts itself to the level of perception needed for the senses journey.
Would the adaptation be outside of the senses in order to capture that sense of expansion you spoke of before?
To make perpetual fullness and completeness and destroy those divisive lines.
What does perpetual fullness and completeness look like to you?
I'm sure these answers are shallow to you but it's the thought that counts.
Why would I think your responses shallow?
[Edited 8/3/2009 4:29:30 PM PST]
| | 8/3/2009 4:54:56 PM | Enlightenment... | |
shakti
Red Deer, AB
age: 36
| I assure you, I am as stubborn and pigheaded as I always was! I don't think anything has changed that much, as I'm still making the same sorts of arguments that I did with you!
You are debating differently now I think... not sure if anyone else has noticed though..
I think that perhaps because now you are seeing me argue with other people from the outside looking in, as an observer and not someone mixed up in things, it gives you a little more perspective to see that I'm "open-minded" in terms of making it known that I don't claim absolute certainty and only make provisional claims on the basis of the current level of evidence. I've always said this, but it is easy to read my forceful style of writing as implying certainty---perhaps because I say with absolute certainty that I'm quite uncertain!
No, you literally called me weird and foolish and illogical, amongst other choice adjectives. And you would go out of your way to point these things out even when I wasn't making claims to truth, just sharing an opinion.
I don't see you doing this anymore, you seem more able to hear another's views without getting all judgmental and absolutist on their ass.
I also found it funny when you mentioned that I might seem more agnostic to you now, as that couldn't be further from the truth! Actually, back in the day I considered myself an "agnostic atheist", but now I've moved on to the position that agnosticism is either tantamount to postmodernist jibberish or else atheism in sheep's clothing, a way of calling yourself a disbeliever without all those nasty connotations of atheists being baby-eating, seal-raping marauders with no moral compass. So in truth I'm actually more of an atheist now!
Well I guess this highlights how much is determined by perception..
You call yourself a hardcore atheist, to me these are the ones who are so closed minded that they can accept no other possibility. They believe they already have proof simply because there is none and dismiss those who claim a subjective personal relationship with God as being delusional... and rarely miss an opportunity in telling them so.
Whereas an agnostic is able to suspend judgment until they have proof. Instead of saying, you are a fool for believing! They shrug their shoulders and listen to what others have to say because they find it interesting, fascinating. At the end of the day they are comfortable with a lack of proof and feel no need to prosyletize like the hardcore atheist.
You seem more the latter type to me now.
But hey, I'm not trying to label you (like you tried with me, lol) because you are the final arbiter of which label ultimately fits.
It doesn't matter anyway, I just wanted a debate for old times sake, lol... 
| | 8/3/2009 5:03:45 PM | Enlightenment... | |
trippy_hare
Arvada, CO
age: 27
| You know, Shakti has a fair point. I seem to remember Saint being a great deal more- shall we say- emphatic in his discussions. Then again, I could say the same for myself, really. 
[Edited 8/3/2009 5:04:15 PM PST]
| | 8/3/2009 5:12:13 PM | Enlightenment... | |
dunrich2
Brantford, ON
age: 55 online now!
| I see that though with most of the posters from the dark side, lol, the old site. You know, when they killed our group over there, I was amazed how we went from at each others throat one day, to alinging to gether the next.
Saint, dont feel too bad about these comments, lol, I think we all changed a bit, mostly for the better too.
Its a priveledge to know those who refuse to tie thems selves down for life.
| | 8/3/2009 5:37:29 PM | Enlightenment... | | 
turkalurk
Godfrey, IL
age: 27
| I assure you, I am as stubborn and pigheaded as I always was! I don't think anything has changed that much, as I'm still making the same sorts of arguments that I did with you! I think that perhaps because now you are seeing me argue with other people from the outside looking in, as an observer and not someone mixed up in things, it gives you a little more perspective to see that I'm "open-minded" in terms of making it known that I don't claim absolute certainty and only make provisional claims on the basis of the current level of evidence. I've always said this, but it is easy to read my forceful style of writing as implying certainty---perhaps because I say with absolute certainty that I'm quite uncertain!
I also found it funny when you mentioned that I might seem more agnostic to you now, as that couldn't be further from the truth! Actually, back in the day I considered myself an "agnostic atheist", but now I've moved on to the position that agnosticism is either tantamount to postmodernist jibberish or else atheism in sheep's clothing, a way of calling yourself a disbeliever without all those nasty connotations of atheists being baby-eating, seal-raping marauders with no moral compass. So in truth I'm actually more of an atheist now!
However, I don't rape seals or eat babies. Well, maybe I'll eat the occasional baby seal, but that's all, I swear!
ok, so you don't like it when people slander a label with negative connotations, yet that is you preferred method of arguing against agnosticism. You call is jibberish, yet you never explain what qualifies it as jibberish. If it were jibberish, it couldn't be understood. I don't see how rejecting the label of agnosticism, makes you more of an atheist. To me, strong atheism implies a positive belief in the negative, where weak atheism implies a lack of belief in the positive. All strong atheists lack a belief in the positive, but they also have a positive belief in the negative. So, it seems you are saying that although you aren't certain there are no god's, you believe that there are no god's because of the lack of evidence supporting their existence. However, the only time you can use a lack of evidence as evidence in the positive, would be to determine such evidence would be expected, and how could you say that for every god concept out there? It's like you're basically saying, "I don't exactly know for certain, but I certainly don't believe in god, yet don't call me an agnostic atheist because that has a bad connotation to it! Call me an uncertain atheist. 
| | 8/3/2009 6:11:10 PM | Enlightenment... | | 
freezinoutside
Scotts, MI
age: 55
| If every thousand mile journey begins with one step then enlightenment is the first step.
| | 8/3/2009 6:31:20 PM | Enlightenment... | |
saintgasoline
Saint Louis, MO
age: 27
| ok, so you don't like it when people slander a label with negative connotations, yet that is you preferred method of arguing against agnosticism.
That's because the negative connotations of atheists as immoral baby-eating satanists aren't true. The negatives I mentioned concerning agnosticism are true, and I will explain shortly.
You call is jibberish, yet you never explain what qualifies it as jibberish.
I called it postmodern jibberish. Most people who label themselves agnostics do so on the basis of an outdated, rationalist perspective on epistemology. They think that because we cannot know for certain that God does not exist, we must suspend judgment. Indeed, they go so far as to say, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," and as I've explained numerous times, this statement is horribly incorrect. The basic motive for making this claim is that a claim of absence is always uncertain. If there is no evidence of something existing, this is compatible with the thing not existing, but it is also compatible with the thing existing and the evidence being hidden or unknown. But this isn't a problem solely for the absence of evidence! This is just the problem of the underdetermination of theories. Even the theory of evolution, for instance, can't be known with certainty, as well supported as it is, because though the evidence is compatible with evolution being true, it is also compatible with God creating the world in a way that resembles evolution, or compatible with any other claim provided we assume the additional evidence ruling out evolution and supporting this other view is currently unknown or hidden. As you see, the agnostic's refusal to accept the dictum "absence of evidence is evidence of absence" on account of this claim being uncertain is nonsensical, as any other positive claim is likewise just as uncertain. This is the old, rationalist conception of epistemology. But a modern fallibilist conception doesn't demand certainy, and instead demands testability and probability. Thus, we say that something does not exist if there is no evidence, knowing our position can be changed should we later discover evidence of existence. You rule out the more complex theory in favor of the one with fewer existential assumptions, given the current state of evidence. And clearly, there are more assumptions involved in assuming something exists given a lack of evidence rather than provisionally asserting that the thing does not exist. Thus, the agnostic position on this matter, which demands certainty, leads to logical entailments that NO claims can be made at all, and that we must ultimately remain agnostic about everything except tautologies. And that is basically post-modern rubbish of the type that denies any any capacity for knowing truth. They overlook the well-known fact that knowledge isn't built on certainty, but on provisional, evidence-based theory-building.
However, the only time you can use a lack of evidence as evidence in the positive, would be to determine such evidence would be expected, and how could you say that for every god concept out there?
That's because it doesn't apply to all God concepts universally, but to specific God concepts. Allow me to explain with an analogy.
Suppose people used the word "morg" to refer to pink elephants that cause food to spoil. Now, this use of the word "morg" would be easily falsified, as you'd expect to see evidence of these elephants around spoiling food, and it would always be absent. But suppose some other people use the word "morg" to refer to a mystical, unknowable entity which you wouldn't expect to produce evidence. In this case, one could disregard the claim because it is nonsensical. To say this kind of "morg" exists is essentially to say, "I don't know what it is, but it exists!" which isn't saying much of anything. Suppose still others refer to their toaster as a "morg." In that case I'd say I have no qualms about believing "morgs" exist, except that I'd call them "toasters" to avoid undue confusion.
My views on God are similar. Hence, I disbelieve in deities that would entail observable effects or produce physical evidence (such as the deities of most world religions, who manifest themselves in reality in various ways). This is the type of God the large majority of people believe in, hence usually when I talk of God I am referring to this type. I also disbelieve in Gods that are claimed to be knowable but for whatever reason we wouldn't expect evidence of their existence. This is because, seeing as how these Gods are knowable, we could in principle uncover evidence of their existence at a later date, and hence disbelieving in these Gods is perfectly reasonable as it is a falsifiable claim. It is also the claim with the fewest assumptions, as nonexistence exactly predicts the lack of evidence and no other observation, whereas existence is inexact, as we could say the thing exists given observation of evidence, or given the lack of evidence by assuming the evidence is unknown or hidden. As such, the position of nonexistence fits the facts better. (Compare this to the creationism vs. evolution debate: evolution EXACTLY predicts homology, vestigial traits, and a simple-to-complex timeline of organismal development---whereas creationism INEXACTLY predicts this, as it is certainly true an omnipotent being could produce life forms showing signs of homology, vestigial parts, and simple-to-complex development, but it is also true that we could observe exactly the opposite and still maintain an omnipotent being was at work. The problem is that creationism doesn't fits the facts as well, and in fact fits the facts so loosely as to be completely untestable or unfalsifiable.)
Of course, because this kind of God is easily argued against, theologians have taken to removing God from inquiry by making it completely mystical and unknowable. So much the worse for the theologians! They make their God so incomprehensible that they themselves can't even comprehend it, and hence they aren't even saying anything meaningful when they claim God exists.
Then there are the folk, like yourself, who call the universe or being God. My only reply is that I don't deny the universe or "being" exist; I am not referring to universes or existence in itself when I say God does not exist.
Now, aside from those agnostics who mistakenly assume certainty is necessary to make claims about existence and nonexistence, there are other agnostics who simply call themselves such because they find the term "atheist" unpalatable. Thus, they really accept most of the principles of atheism, and they disbelieve in God, but they call themselve agnostics because it is a more socially accepted term, and so on. Obviously, I have no disagreement with this type of agnostic in points of fact, but I am a fan of "reclaiming" the word "atheist" from its more perjorative uses.
| | 8/3/2009 7:10:26 PM | Enlightenment... | | 
niceguy4tlc
Port Saint Lucie, FL
age: 52
| Buddhist enlightenment is when you have unlocked the gates to the universe through your mind and only then can you become a Buddha.
There are many ways to define enlightenment and life in our continuous journey through time and space.
Namaste`
| | 8/3/2009 7:13:15 PM | Enlightenment... | | rodrigoa1
Locust Grove, VA
age: 34
| The moment you try to analyze enlightenment you are far far away from enlightenment.
| | 8/3/2009 8:10:59 PM | Enlightenment... | |
shakti
Red Deer, AB
age: 36
| ^^ Nice : )
Turk, you are the one who prompted me to start this thread, yet all you have to offer are criticisms of Saint and how he chooses to label himself.. ?
And Saint.. how disappointing 
| | 8/3/2009 9:09:21 PM | Enlightenment... | |
turkalurk
Godfrey, IL
age: 27
| ^^ Nice : )
Turk, you are the one who prompted me to start this thread, yet all you have to offer are criticisms of Saint and how he chooses to label himself.. ?
And Saint.. how disappointing
Don't you worry, I certainly plan to answer your questions. I just want to reflect on them for awhile first.
Saint, give me awhile, and I'll write a suitable thread we can debate our positions on.
| | 8/3/2009 9:46:44 PM | Enlightenment... | |
lust4love
Atco, NJ
age: 39
| After a 6-pack of beer  Let me put it another way. Logic is manmade and so is time. therefore all this jibberish we try to make sense of is merley garbage our minds create.When you think youre enlightened youve earned your degree in Ignorance.
Before a 6-pack What is enlightenment?
Enlightenment is the normal, natural state of health for the body and mind. It results from the full development of consciousness and depends upon the perfect and harmonious functioning of every part of the body and nervous system. When one is using the full potential of the mind and body in this way, every thought and action is spontaneously correct and life-supporting. This is life free from suffering, life lived in its full stature and significance.
The goal of the Transcendental Meditation Technique is the state of enlightenment. This means we experience that inner calmness, that quiet state of least excitation, even when we are dynamically busy.
According to Paul McCartney "It’s one of the few things anyone has ever given to me that means so much to me". Of his experience with TM, Kurt Vonnegut said; "I tried that (TM). It gave me a terrible headache" Ozzy Osbourne thought it was a waste of time, saying "I tried TM but gave it up and smoked a joint instead." Of his experience with TM Lennon described it as "Just a waste of time".
[Edited 8/3/2009 9:58:21 PM PST]
| | 8/3/2009 11:18:47 PM | Enlightenment... | | sharedmercy
Fort Wayne, IN
age: 54
| What do you think enlightenment is?
To become aware...Whether the subject is a truth or not.
What distinguishes an enlightened person from a non-enlightened person?
Someone who is without knowledge or a sense of, a particular subject.
Is it an end in and of itself, or a process/journey?
It's a beginning of a process/journey.
What is the purpose of enlightenment.. ?
To bring one into a subject that they have no or little knowledge of.
| | 8/4/2009 8:18:52 AM | Enlightenment... | |
niceguy4tlc
Port Saint Lucie, FL
age: 52
| Why do many Christians frown on TM and other methods which can achieve a sense of inner peace, understanding and enlightenment?
The fear is that you can actually come out of your body. While this would seem to be total bliss, there is the chance that either you will be trapped outside of you body- and unable to move on- or that may become possessed once that you have "unlocked" you mind.
Many hidden truths are available and many are know to the gnostic culture. Its not encouraged because not everyone can understand such things. The occult is a good example of such abuses.
| | 8/5/2009 6:21:05 AM | Enlightenment... | | contemplatingu
Antigo, WI
age: 55
| Quote from contemplatingu:
Enlightenment is: A primary tool used to expand mankinds senses to an optimul central unity.
This is an interesting way of putting it..
So is it like a realization that we are all interconnected?
No but it helps our senses realize we are intercon....also that everything us encluded are from the same substance.
It is a process/journey. More of a never ending process in that it continually self adapts itself to the level of perception needed for the senses journey.
Would the adaptation be outside of the senses in order to capture that sense of expansion you spoke of before?
No. When you are hungry, do you read a sign on the wall that says you're hungry, or is it an internal sense? It's internal. Like wise enlightenment is internal but it's a separate internal tool. And I'm not presently enlightened enought to fully understand it. It's just apart of your very essence.
To make perpetual fullness and completeness and destroy those divisive lines.
What does perpetual fullness and completeness look like to you?
It looks like everyone and everything being in one unity, everything working together in harmony.
I'm sure these answers are shallow to you but it's the thought that counts.
Why would I think your responses shallow?
I guess after thinking it over, you shouldn't
| | 8/5/2009 12:31:34 PM | Enlightenment... | |
turkalurk
Godfrey, IL
age: 27
| I really haven't been feeling it so much lately, so these are pretty difficult questions for me.
To me, enlightenment is a process in which we attempt to objectify our perspective, in order to see a more complete perspective. So, I guess enlightenment is the process in which we come to know ourselves better than we did before. I like the idea of the big me and the little me. When we our able to step outside and look within, we are able to see the bigger picture. Thus, we see the bigger us. Instead of seeing things from the ego's narrow view point, you project yourself outward so that you can look within. The little me is all about protecting itself and reinforcing it's sense of importance. It develops through seperation and integration. It seeks to separate what causes discomfort, while integrating what feeds its security, inflates the ego, and creates pleasure. Basically, it seeks to maximize pleasure while minimizing pain, and structures its identity around this principle. So, enlightenment is the process in which we break through the perception of our barrier with the "other." internal/external self/other To me, there are moments when this is an actual experience. Where I literally feel the barrier break down, and I start to lose the perception of a border between my skin and the air around me. This is when I feel at one with Being. It's more of an emotional experience. Now, I don't believe this experience amounts to a person being enlightened. To me, there are few enlightened people. An enlightened person, lives their life in an enlightened state. It's easy to experience an enlightened awareness, but its much harder to maintain it, or always act in accordance to this awareness. The little me is as clever as you are, and is always seeking to take back control. To flavor your perspective with biases, and to influence your reactions in a way that protects whatever identity you have developed. For example, one might start to identify with an enlightened person that feels special because of their spiritual wisdom, and their ego grows accordingly. They develop beliefs that they are some special teacher here to change the world. Or, they are some special reincarnation of a godly persona.
What distinguishes an enlightened person from a non-enlightened person, is their actions. Enlightened people remain unselfish, while us non-enlightened people will slip into our selfish ways at times. Doesn't mean a non-enlightened person can't act enlightened at times. It's that an enlightened person acts enlightened on a consistent basis, even when the goings get rough. To me, enlightenment is an emergent property of consciousness, so I'd call it a process in which one experiences a bigger sense of self. I think many confuse being enlightened with identifying with their "superego." They feel as though they are enlightened, because they have liberated themselves from ego attachment, only to be dominated by their superego. Whereas, an enlightened person will seek a balance, and observe the id, ego, and superego functioning within them, instead of Ego functioning as them.
I really wanted to give this some more reflection, but it would probably take a long time for me to really have a strong enough grasp on it to communicate it properly. I don't feel like I'm doing it any justice. But, at least you have an idea on how I'm presently viewing it.
[Edited 8/5/2009 12:36:15 PM PST]
| | 8/5/2009 9:24:31 PM | Enlightenment... | | lees224
Cohoes, NY
age: 52
| one single candle can disspell darkness..
one flicker of light can brighten a multitude of space..
light comes after the dark..
enlightenment comes to you through spirit..afterwords.. 
| | 8/5/2009 11:49:25 PM | Enlightenment... | | themadfiddler
Edmonton, AB
age: 41
|
Why do many Christians frown on TM and other methods which can achieve a sense of inner peace, understanding and enlightenment?
The fear is that you can actually come out of your body. While this would seem to be total bliss, there is the chance that either you will be trapped outside of you body- and unable to move on- or that may become possessed once that you have "unlocked" you mind.
Many hidden truths are available and many are know to the gnostic culture. Its not encouraged because not everyone can understand such things. The occult is a good example of such abuses.
Sorry but as a scholar and practitioner of arts that are considered occult, I happen to find the term "abuses" as offensive as you would a description of your faith as "brainwashing" or something similar.
As the saying goes, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" and by repeating slurs such as this against forms of spirituality you do not understand or relate to, you do a disservice to yourself and your fellow man.
The "fear" if any, speaking as a former Christian and if I do say so myself a pretty keen observer of the human psyche is twofold. Fear comes from abandonment of familiar structures...structures of family, God, country, culture, all of the social memes that we are indoctrinated with from childhood on in our most basic nurturing behaviors from parents educators and role models. Secondly, fear in different spiritual practices arises from primal fears relating to the spiritual fears indoctrinated in the religion of sin, death the afterlife and tales of peril to our "immortal soul" should we stray from the straight and narrow, "one true" path, whatever that path may be in our culture. And the single biggest fear, no matter what our background is, is thinking for one's self.
The hard work that accompanies real spiritual development involves discarding just about everything of the standard dogmatic approach to religion and pursuing, IMHO, the path of the mystic, be it Christian, Islamic, Jewish, Buddhist or pagan. And hard work it is...and it doesn't stop. It is life changing, ongoing and rarely rewarding. As the Christian mystic Thomas Merton said of enlightenment "How rare the hour and how brief it's duration" when speaking of those few moments of harmony and union with God through meditation...and this meditation is identical to the meditation of Buddhist or Hindu monks or pagans or Sufis or Kabbalists...it involves silencing and focusing the mind to eliminate the noise of day to day life, to hear what is beyond ourselves...the voice of God, the Infinite, the Dao, The Goddess, Allah, what have you.
But with all due respect to my Christian brothers and sisters here, I would appreciate it in future if you don't use "occult" as some sort of pejorative implying devil worship or some nonsense such as that. Occult merely means "hidden" and implies mystical knowledge and is merely a different path of spiritual pursuit. Suggestions of being deceived by Satan or similar claptrap are about as brainlessly offensive and ignorant as suggesting that Jews and Hindus are in spiritual darkness or black people don't go to the same heaven as everyone else. It's bigotry, plain and simple...and the last time I checked, you don't get to burn people for witchcraft anymore.
| | 8/11/2009 10:49:15 AM | Enlightenment... | | skunkbreath
Saint James, MO
age: 90
| fiddler,"I would appreciate it in future if you don't use "occult" as some sort of pejorative implying devil worship or some nonsense such as that."
So, you are asking many of the christians to lie?!.That is , to not express what they really think!
Then!!!!..You pejoratively call devil worship, a kissing cousin of the Yehweh cults, nonsense!..Does that imply that all in that family is nonsense?!!..
And would you care to elaborate on the other nonsense?
[Edited 8/11/2009 10:53:49 AM PST]
| | 8/11/2009 5:30:34 PM | Enlightenment... | | 
mr_crowley
Aynor, SC
age: 41 online now!
| Enlightenment lies in these 4words "DER MENSCH IST GOTT".
When man learns the meaning behind those words he has achieved "enlightenment".
I dont mean the definition of those words, because they mean "MAN IS GOD" when that realization is made enlightenment is experienced.
BUT!, reading the words doesn't mean you learned who you are, or what you can be.
You actualy have to be a god to be one.
Believing your divinity, doesn't make you divine n it doesn't mean you've achieved perfection either.
Even the 2,500+ mythical gods worshipped throughout history, weren't perfect.
They all had many flaws, in their theologies, creations n even their own divinity was flawed.
Nothing has ever been flawless except possibly ALICE IN CHAINS
It is possible that man is collectively "divine", life itself could be the yin n yang.
Its just as possible that the earth that gives us sustenance. IS OUR CREATOR
"MOTHER EARTH IS AN ORGANISM. WE ARE CELLS WITH MANY DIFFERENT PURPOSES. YET WE ARE INTERTWINED.
SERVING EACH OTHER; SERVING THE WHOLE MOTHER EARTH"
[Edited 8/11/2009 5:49:44 PM PST]
| | 8/11/2009 5:43:43 PM | Enlightenment... | | themadfiddler
Edmonton, AB
age: 41
|
fiddler,"I would appreciate it in future if you don't use "occult" as some sort of pejorative implying devil worship or some nonsense such as that."
skunk:
So, you are asking many of the christians to lie?!.That is , to not express what they really think!
Well I'm pretty aware of what some of them think...I would prefer they have the civility to at least preface some of their more...shall we say less sociable beliefs with an "In my beliefs we are taught that..." or "I believe that..." in front of them so there might be a slight aura of humility there. I mean we will all know in their heart of hearts they will go on to believe whatever they want and curse the ground some of us walk on...but manners do grease the wheels of social activity and this is a pluralistic, multifaith web forum is it not?
Then!!!!..You pejoratively call devil worship, a kissing cousin of the Yehweh cults, nonsense!..Does that imply that all in that family is nonsense?!!
Not sure where I did that...maybe you could point it out to me...in reviewing my post I am not sure which part to which you are referring.
And would you care to elaborate on the other nonsense?
Please specify which nonsense you'd like me to elaborate on...sometimes I talk a load of bollocks when I am on a roll 
| | 8/11/2009 6:05:33 PM | Enlightenment... | |
dunrich2
Brantford, ON
age: 55 online now!
| Well I sure am no God, lol, Im bad enough at trying to follow him.
Not sure what TM ( Transendental Meditation, I figured that after I finished the post, sorry am slow tonight}is nice guy. But I really do find many in Christianity do practise occult like activity. They like to call it different names though.
As for out of body expieriences, many have stumbled upon this with out even knowing there were names for it.The first time I expierienced this, I was simply trying to block out my mind completely in order to islolate my self from extreme pain after an "accident", I was about 3 hours with out medical aid.
I travelled down though not up. Thought for a long time it was just a checmical reaction from the extreme tramau, or maybe I had slipped in and out of life. But then after I healed from my injuries, did the same thing as a way of beating the cluster migraines I get occasionally. Anyway, it happened a couple more time.
I had no clue what it was then a freind mentioned that sometimes Shamans travel down and not up. I was quite shocked when I checked it out and discovered that was true. I had no idea at all. {Oh it isnt Hell either}.
[Edited 8/11/2009 6:07:17 PM PST]
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