Forums: Religion: Islam, Christianity and Judaism
1/17/2008 7:25:24 AMIslam, Christianity and Judaism 

oceans5555
Chevy Chase, MD
age: 64

Greetings, everyone.

I have been surprised by the degree of anti-Islamic sentiments expressed in these threads. Yes, terrorism is scary. Yes, there are those who, for their own reasons, are trying to get a new world war started between the US and the Muslim world. Yes, few of us have read the Torah AND the Bible AND the Quran (Koran), so it is difficult to compare the three. And yes, the Internet is full of misleading disinformation, whether it is anti-Jewish, anti-Christian, or anti-Muslim.

So I think we owe it to ourselves to be thoughtful about all this, and to pay attention to what this is really all about. I know that a lot of minds are fixed, and a lot of anger infuses the postings. But I wonder if we could have a thoughtful discussion here, in which we are open-minded and questioning, in which we assume to begin with that everyone who participates really wants to find a deeper understanding?

I hope we can. What will it say about us if we can't, if the voices of intolerance and anger and fear and bigotry swamp ours?

May I offer these summary thoughts?

The practice of an oath-taker placing his hand on the Bible, or any religious text, is not a requirement of taking an oath; it has become a common practice among many, but is not a requirement.

Is it not appropriate for someone who is religious to choose the text that represents their faith? It would seem odd to me that a Jew would choose the Bible or the Quran (Senator Lieberman, a Jew, reasonably used the Torah), or that a Christian would choose the Torah or Quran, or that a Muslim would use a Bible or the Torah.

We forget that Judaism, Christianity and Islam all come from the same religious sources. Muslims honor and accept the prophets of Judaism and Christianity, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, etc. The Quran mentions Jesus many many times as a source of wisdom and God's authority. Indeed the Quran mentions Jesus many more times than it does Muhammad.

We forget that Islam accepts, advocates, and honors the Gospels, and the Torah.

Let's not be scared into demonizing Muslims and Islam, or equating terrorists with them. We do not confuse the KKK and Inquisition and Christianity. We do not confuse the Irgun and Stern Gangs with Judaism. So let us not be tricked into equating terrorists with Islam.

What do you think? Who would like to be a constructive part of this discussion?

Oceans

1/17/2008 7:34:48 AMIslam, Christianity and Judaism 

jazminx
Mount Airy, GA
age: 41 online now!

Ocean, i respect your desire for peaceful debate, but I have to say you appear to be equivocating.

1) having the same religious source does not in fact make the three religions necessarily compatible. Saying muslims respect the prophets is meaningless when they decide the words of their main prophet Mohamed has priority.

2) To say that all three religions have the same goals is also folly. The Koran, compared to the bible or torah, is a militaristic tome. Conversion at the end of a sword tip is not merely an expression.

3) unlike christianity, islam is more than merely a religion to its adherents, it is a way of life, that extends well beyond morality and traditions. There is a very big difference between those that commit acts BECAUSE of their religion, versus those that act, and HAPPEN to be a certain religion. Terrorist do what they do because of their religion. It would be nice to say they are the extremists, but they aren't. It is the peaceful ones that are the exception.


if you need an example, i could pull up many examples of muslims becoming violent over things that other religions would not.

1/17/2008 8:16:41 AMIslam, Christianity and Judaism 

baggy
Cranbury, NJ
age: 41

I agree with Jazminx.

Look at the Palestinian Territories. Muslims glorify death rather than our current existence. 72 virgins await homicide bombers and idolation by the population. Even early school books in teaching math seethe with Jew hatred, ie; if Muhammad killed 2 Jews and Ahmad killed 3 Jews, how many can they kill together ? It's ingrained in their culture.

Currently within the confines of peace negotiations with Israel, Palestinians daily send rockets and mortar fire from Gaza into Israel. And when Israel then TARGET militants rather than randomly fire into Gaza, Leader Abbas refers to it as an Israeli massacre and it will jeopardize peace.

Current polls throughout the Muslim world show a vast majority believe events of 911 were not perpetrated by Muslims !!!!! Rather by USA itself or Israel !

How brainwashed can people be ?

........look throughout the world, how about Darfur ? Muslims trying to rid the land of nonMuslims, a genocide, forcing many hundreds of thousands from their homes.

1/17/2008 8:47:22 AMIslam, Christianity and Judaism 

oceans5555
Chevy Chase, MD
age: 64

Hi, Jazminx,

Many thanks for your post. May I offer some comments?

Yes, Muslims believe that is the last of the prophets of God. This is not unusual: Christians believe that Jesus was the last. Jews believe that their's was the last. From the Muslim point of view, Christians just remained stuck with Jesus, failing to get the word of Muhammad. From the Christian point of view, the Jews failed to recognize Jesus, and failed to get is word.

Muslims do not believe that the Quran disagrees with the Gospels, in the same way, I think, that Christians do not believe that the Gospels disagree with the Torah (please tell me is I have this wrong, or is there are some Christian groups that disagree with the Torah).

The contents of the Quran are all compatible with the Gospel.

Yes, there are differences between Muslims, Christians and Jews, but they tend to have less to do with theology than with culture. One major theological difference is that Christians believe that Jesus is divine, whereas Jews don't recognize Jesus at all, and Muslims while recognizing Jesus see him as a very important prophet rather than divine.

My sense of the Quran is not that it is militaristic. I have read it quite carefully. It is certainly no more militaristic than the Gospel, and far less militaristic than the Torah (which I have only now read superficially). Like other religions, Islam does have a strong self-defense component, but no more so than the Bible.

Support for Muslim terrorists in the Muslim world is minor. There are a few Muslim nuts, like Usama bin Laden, who advocate terrorism but by and large the Muslim world has denounced both bin Laden and his terrorist tactics, and denounced and then ignored his calls for such violence. This is not to say that Muslims will roll over for what they see as oppression directed at them from the West, but that they, like most Americans, do not believe in targeting civilians. Indeed, under Islamic Law, attacking civilians is formally and fully illegal. In this respect Muslim law is quite similar to Western international law. Muslim chaplains in the US armed forces find no incompatibility between Muslim law and the US Uniformed Code of Military Justice.

Terrorism.... the main concern we have with terrorism is that it attacks military and civilian targets indiscriminately, and when we are the targets it is easy to issue broadside denunciations. But while it is hard it is also important for us to look behind this to see the 'why's' of terrorism, and to understand how it is that we figure into the equation. Only, in my view, if we do this will we have a chance to form some effective polities and actions to deal with the threat.

Most terrorists fight against what they perceive as oppression. Note that not all terrorists are Muslim. Indeed, the US was founded with the use in part of terrorist tactics, including those of the Minute Men. The IRA draws the admiration of many Americans, though no one disputes the fact that they are terrorists. Israel even today has death squads that carry out terrorist attacks on Palestinians, and many Americans admire them for it. The Hindu Tamil Tigers, and Catholic ETA carry out terrorist acts, which are also admired by some Americans. The death squads that the US secretly funded throughout Latin America, terrorist to the core, also enjoyed American and even US government support. So the issue of terrorism is not, in my opinion, quite as one-sided or simple as some make it out to be.

I don't know of any terrorists who fight simply because of religion, though they may be inspired to fight based upon religious admonitions. I have interviewed many terrorists from all over the world, and this is a common element -- they fight against oppression, whether it is political or economic. They are, generally, not happy with the tactics they feel they are being forced to use by a more powerful opponent.

Of course, we don't have to agree that they are oppressed, but this is how they experience things, and this is why they fight. We would have to talk about specific instances, at this point, to get away from generalizations and really understand what is happening with 'terrorists.'

Unfortunately, the US has been tricked into using tactics and doing things that fuel the outrage of others, and a very few of these then fight back, and an even fewer number of these use terrorist tactics. When we torture others, when we invade their countries, when we denigrate them rhetorically, when we support repressive regimes, when we do these things we create anger and resentment against us, and, yes, this feeds terrorism.

Right now, we seem locked in a worsening spiral of terrorist/counter-terrorist action and reaction. I don't think this spiral is in the US interests. There is only two groups that I can think of that have a vested interest in seeing this spiral worsen and the US further harmed, and neither of them is Muslim or American.

Well, I have gone on at some length here. I hope you have been able to read this far, and hope that these observations are useful.

Oceans

1/17/2008 8:51:21 AMIslam, Christianity and Judaism 

earthbeing2
Delphos, OH
age: 44

Oceans:
I think we can have a discussion about the three religions but there has to be truth.
For example, to say that Islam holds great respect for all the prophets of Christianity: Abraham, Moses, Jesus is actually not respectful. To Christians, Christ is NOT a prophet but the Messiah, the Son of the Living God. He makes the claim He is the Son of God and was equal with the Father (God as a father is not an alien concept to Jews; He just takes it to a much higher degree of intimacy). Here is the truth: if Jesus IS the Son of God, Islam is flat-out wrong. If He is only a prophet, Christianity/the New Testament is not worth the paper it's printed on. As C.S. Lewis wrote, because of the claims Christ makes, such as I am the Way, not one of the ways either He is a liar or a lunatic, which would make anything He said worthless, or Lord.
Two, Islam does not even acknowledge that Christians have their own Scriptures right. They claim Christians, and Jews, for that matter, have deliberately changed the Scriptures away from the "real" ones, which promotes the coming of Mohammad as the greatest prophet. Actually, they are in agreement with the Gnostics, who claim that Christ was not divine but Constantine made Him so. Some say that the coming of the Holy Spirit predicted by Christ was actually foretelling the coming of Mohammad. Of course, why Christians, who knew the language Christ made these prophecies in and believed His prophecy had come true on Pentecost, would then alter passages due to someone they had no clue about and wouldn't come for centuries — most of the books were written in the first century and the canon was put together in the fourth — is beyond me. How can you have a respectful dialogue when one side doesn't even give you that? Christians don't claim that the Koran didn't come from Mohammad or has been distorted. You can always argue that something might be misinterpreted but to say it has been deliberately altered by its own authorities — The Church — is unbelievable.
I could get into more but that is not the point. We must come at a discussion like this from truth and from history. Many people in the name of Christ have done despicable things; recent Popes have acknowledged that. Many others have been martyred for the Name of Christ.
If Muslims will acknowledge the evil done in the name of Allah, we can go somewhere; to my knowledge, no imam or any other official has acknowledged this. Many Muslims have also been good people that do not murder in the name of their religion.
If Jews will do the same, ditto.
I am sure some will accuse me of anti-this, that and the other thing but to those that do, show me I'm wrong.

1/17/2008 8:51:23 AMIslam, Christianity and Judaism 

lookinaround73
Pensacola, FL
age: 34

Sure Oceans. I would love to be part of the discussion. Let me respond to a few of your points.

"Yes, terrorism is scary. Yes, there are those who, for their own reasons, are trying to get a new world war started between the US and the Muslim world." - Yes there are people that are trying to start a world war between Muslims and non Muslims. Those people are called Muslims and they call it jihad.

"We forget that Islam accepts, advocates, and honors the Gospels, and the Torah." - Yes, and it also calls for followers of Islam to "smite their necks" (referring to us "infidels")

"Let's not be scared into demonizing Muslims and Islam, or equating terrorists with them." - It isn't a matter of being scared into doing anything. It is a matter of calling a spade a spade. How can you NOT equate terrorism with Islam? Open your eyes…open a newspaper…take a look at the daily attacks Muslims carry out EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! The PEACEFUL religion of Islam has carried out over 10,000 terrorist acts since 9.11.2001. That is really all I need to know.
Sure, bring up the KKK and Christianity, Jaz hit that nail on the head.

"So let us not be tricked into equating terrorists with Islam" - Well then, who or what should we equate terrorism? I want to know because every time it is Islam. Oh yea, I forgot, that Danish guy drew some cartoons….savage.
I do not have the time to list the atrocities carried out by Islam in the last 10 years. Can you tell me when the last time non-Muslims flew planes into buildings, murdered school girls as they ran from a burning building(because their faces weren't covered, performed female genital mutilation, stoned a rape victim, bombed a hotel, bombed a café, bombed a bus stop, lobed mortars into Israel, enjoyed mass/worldwide rioting over a damn cartoon, attacked transport ship off the coast of Somalia, and the list of atrocities goes on….all by those peaceful Muslims. Tell me when a non-Muslim group has done these things in the same timeframe. You cant.
Their book tells them to kill infidels (it actually says to smite their necks). It isn't hard to figure out.
What do you propose we do? They have declared war on us, and CERTAIN people refuse to accept that.

1/17/2008 9:02:45 AMIslam, Christianity and Judaism 

oceans5555
Chevy Chase, MD
age: 64

Hi Baggy,

Keep in mind that not all Palestinians are Muslim. About 40% are Christian (I am including the refugee Palestinians in this estimate).

Palestinians are motivated by wanting their country back. Religion is not the issue.

The problem that the Palestinians have strategically is this: Right now, Israel effectively controls the whole of Palestine. Much is made of the Gazan zone being 'independent', but in reality Israel controls its borders, port, airport, airspace, electricity, and some of its water supplies. So the Palestinians are faced with the choice of giving up and accepting Israeli occupation, or fighting back.

Fighting back involves things from throwing stones to their homemade rockets, to suicide attacks. Not very pretty, and not very effective, but it has the one advantage of keeping the Palestinian cause in the headlines.

When the Palestinians don't fight back, they are essentially ignored by the world. So they fight on, as best they can, and hope that someday the world will understand why and what they are fighting for.

The so-called peace negotiations, and this is something that I know quite a bit about, are in my opinion, mostly sham -- theatrical pieces put on by the Palestinians and the Israelis to try and convince the world that they are 'good guys' and committed to negotiations. I think that only one negotiation was ever sincere, that at Taba, 2000-2001. They made good progress (and were perhaps within six weeks of resolving all outstanding issues), but the negotiations were stopped by Ariel Sharon when he became Prime Minister of Israel.

In any case, for our thread here on Islam, Judaism and Christianity, the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict has secular origins, and will, in my opinion, only be solved with a secular solution. Most Palestinians and most Israelis would love to find a solution and do not insist that it have a religious basis. Even leaving religion aside, I think a solution is going to be very hard to find.

Oceans

1/17/2008 9:07:06 AMIslam, Christianity and Judaism 

jazminx
Mount Airy, GA
age: 41 online now!

Ocean's many people in these forums have large bones to pick about Christianity. because of this they are more than willing to hang the onus of all the worlds crimes on them. Even as you say, they are actually secular in origin.And thats the difference, all Muslim aggression is based in their religion.

1/17/2008 9:10:38 AMIslam, Christianity and Judaism 

oceans5555
Chevy Chase, MD
age: 64

Hi, Earthbeing (I like your nickname!)

I agree, we must search for the truth, and am glad we have started to do so here.

I have to get back to work, so will try and pick up on the many good points you raise later.

In the meantime, I hope you have a fine afternoon.

Regards,

Oceans

1/17/2008 9:12:01 AMIslam, Christianity and Judaism 

lookinaround73
Pensacola, FL
age: 34

Oceans, I would love to hear your response to my post.

1/17/2008 9:21:48 AMIslam, Christianity and Judaism 

oceans5555
Chevy Chase, MD
age: 64

Hi, Jazminx,

Thanks for the thoughtful tone and discussion.

Agreed that a lot of people are bashing Christianity. It is not helpful, nor fair. But it doesn't help that Christians then turn around and bash others...it just makes things worse for everyone, I think.

Anyway: I can think of many Muslims who are doing terrorism, or, as they view it, fighting oppression -- who are not at all motivated by religion. Keep in mind that just as among Jews and Christians there are many non-practicing Muslims who are motivated by secular goals and motivations.

George Habash, who was one the nastiest Palestinian terrorists, was Christian, but a secular one. Menachem Begin the leader of the Jewish terrorist group Irgun, was also motivated by secular impulses, and so appropriately we don't say that all Jewish terrorists are motivated by Judaism, or all Christian terrorists were motivated by Christianity. Timothy McVeigh and UNABOMBER were both Christians, but neither of them were motivated by Christianity to do what they did. It is the same with terrorists who are Muslim by background. Some will assert religious beliefs justify (not motivate) what they do, in the same way that Begin and Habash did, but there is nothing in their respective theologies that 'makes' them do terrrorist things.

Anyway, back to work here!

Regards,
Oceans

1/17/2008 9:23:07 AMIslam, Christianity and Judaism 

oceans5555
Chevy Chase, MD
age: 64

You bet, Lookinaround -- didn't mean to ignore you. I'll get back later. Got some deadlines to meet.

Regards,
Oceans

1/17/2008 9:31:28 AMIslam, Christianity and Judaism 

earthbeing2
Delphos, OH
age: 44

Oceans:
Jews don't believe Jesus Christ is the Messiah, though there are some Messianic Jews. Whether they believe the last prophet has come in unknown; I would imagine that they consider many since Micah and Joel of the Old Testament as prophets.
Also, to Christians, Jesus is NOT a prophet. He is the one to whom the prophets all point.
You also hit in on the head. Muslims believe that Christians got stuck on Jesus. Well, if He is who He claims He is, it is they who are fixated on a false prophet.
I don't agree that differences are purely cultural or that they respect the Gospel. I believe much of it IS theological. Is it not blasphemous in the Koran to call Jesus the Son of God because God has no son and is not a father? If that is true, they are calling Christ a liar.
Or is their respect for the Gospel one of respect for THEIR undistorted Gospel, the one they claim is the true Gospel and not the one of the Christians?
That is very theological.
You are right: violence is not the sole domain of the Islamists. This has been a violent world since The Fall.
However, look at the founding of Christianity. There were so many martyrs because they believed in peace and because they refused to worship Caesar but Christ. They began in peace.
Mohammad was a warlord and spread Islam by the sword. I believe the historical record bears that out. Now, there are the Crusades, that started out as purely a defensive war to save Christendom. Christendom did not take up arms to conquer Europe but did it by persuasion. That is not the case of Islam. Muslims were threatening to overrun all of Europe and North Africa and the Pope called for a Crusade to prevent this from happening.
Did it get out hand? Yes. As I wrote before, recent Popes have apologized for evils done in the name of Christ. Where are the apologies from Islamic rulers for the atrocities their ancestors did throughout history? I really would like to know. Maybe they are out there.
Where Muslims ruled, Christians were second-class citizens either by law or custom. That still is the case in many countries today. Conversion to Christianity can mean the death penalty. Does this sound like respect to you? Where are the apologies for that? I cannot think of any Christian nations today where they don't bend over backwards to accommodate Islam or put a Muslim convert to death.
Many Muslims went berzerko when the pictures of Mohammad were carried in Dutch newspapers. We were told they were justified, though they shouldn't have gotten violent. Christians in America and elsewhere get crucifixes in jars of urine, done in the name of art with our tax money, and we are told to shut up and take it or we're intolerant.
If this violence is NOT almost ingrained in the Koran; it seems there is at least a lot of vagueness in the book regarding this, such as the 72 virgins and it's OK to kill infidels; and in Mohammad's writings, then it behooves Muslims leaders to more forcefully speak out against this hijacking of their religion. Pro-lifers in this country get it all the time: one nut-job, out of millions of those who truly respect life, bombs a clinic and he represents the entire movement in the media's eyes. Pro-life leaders are then held accountable for that nut, even though they consistently and forcefully decry and condemn that one guy's actions.
Maybe that is what's going on with Islam but it seems to me the way the media bends over backwards to give Muslims the benefit of the doubt, the New York Times DID NOT show those pictures of Mohammad but they do pictures that show Christ/Christians/Americans in a bad light, Muslim leaders that are forcefully condemning the hijacking of their religion would be front and center.
Let's hope it happens and soon or this is going to spiral down into the pits of hell.

1/17/2008 9:37:30 AMIslam, Christianity and Judaism 

jazminx
Mount Airy, GA
age: 41 online now!

"Agreed that a lot of people are bashing Christianity. It is not helpful, nor fair. But it doesn't help that Christians then turn around and bash others...it just makes things worse for everyone, I think.

Anyway: I can think of many Muslims who are doing terrorism, or, as they view it, fighting oppression -- who are not at all motivated by religion. Keep in mind that just as among Jews and Christians there are many non-practicing Muslims who are motivated by secular goals and motivations.
"

well , there are and will always be Christians acting righteous because of their religion, but i fear you are confusing bashing muslims for the sake of bashing , with pointing the fingers at the culprits.
If circles reported that 76 percent of violent crimes were committed by triangles, is that bashing?

secondly, i am not arguing that Christians commit crimes, i am however arguing that the majority of violent acts committed by Muslims in this day are committed BECAUSE of religion, not in spite of it.

there IS a difference in committing an act in the name of religion, and committing an act and just happening to be a member of a religion.


as long as we continue to equivocate these things, we are guilty of being accomplices.

1/17/2008 11:00:06 AMIslam, Christianity and Judaism 

wildgypsy
Bellevue, WA
age: 88

Sorry Oceans, read enough of all three to not agree with your ideas that these three are as similar as you claim, and in no way agree that they agree or accept each other. WAY too much proof to the contrary. I guess you want peace and all, and that is a good thing, but your posts sound a lot like some politician trying to tell us amnesty for illegals is a good thing, when we all know better. A lot of pretty words don't hide the truth from those who know better.


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