| Forums: Religion: Why do the weak seek to suppress faith? What are they afraid of? |
| 2/6/2008 5:05:21 AM | Why do the weak seek to suppress faith? What are they afraid of? | | 
gutthans
Deland, FL
age: 56
| Interesting, and skewed question. Notice that you begin the argument with two inherent assumptions:
1. Others are weak
2. They are afraid
Neither of these is anything other than an opinion, yet it's a presupposition that steers the context of the debate in such a way that it's predetermined the outcome. It's difficult to have a fair discourse with a party that has predetermined the result.
Now, you may not 'see' this logic, yet. While I am not arguing for or against, I am calling you out to open your mind. This may be threatening to your point of view, and this is my biggest issue in debating with most other christians...the belief system that many 'believers' have is a closed mental system. It has great difficulty even pondering a contrary notion. Even if a given belief is ultimately correct, it is typically founded on a set of unsupportable ideas to which little thought has been given, other than to read the first scripture that SEEMS to validate the point. The story of Onan in the old testament is a classic example of an often abused text for sexual repression.
Yes, I already know the answer for you...have faith...and I already recognize that you have likely concluded that I must not, because I call the issue into question, therefore, we can't 'talk' about it. Or have I misjudged?
| | 2/7/2008 8:57:17 AM | Why do the weak seek to suppress faith? What are they afraid of? | | rodlynn
New Britain, CT
age: 45
| Gut writes:
Yes, I already know the answer for you...have faith...and I already recognize that you have likely concluded that I must not, because I call the issue into question, therefore, we can't 'talk' about it. Or have I misjudged?
Gut,
Yes, You have misjudged, I do not consider you weak or afraid, in fact I can’t remember one incident that you sought to suppress faith or that you ever criticized anyone for their faith or that you ever insinuated that those who possess faith are weak and incapable of thinking for themselves, however these are common beliefs among the non believers.
Still, I do not consider all non believers week, only those who lash out in an attempt to suppress faith.
[Edited 2/7/2008 8:58:17 AM]
| | 2/7/2008 10:28:54 AM | Why do the weak seek to suppress faith? What are they afraid of? | | krupa1
Abilene, TX
age: 40
| Faith would be nice. I don't begrudge it......just not my fate to have it. C'est le Vie....C'est le Morte.
| | 2/7/2008 5:45:04 PM | Why do the weak seek to suppress faith? What are they afraid of? | |
gutthans
Deland, FL
age: 56
| Rod, thanks for the reply...I do find it interesting that most people seem to take an 'all or nothing' stance to questions involving science or faith. For my part, I find no 'automatic' need to settle on either as the whole banana, so to speak.
Unfortunately, religion has served as both a drug and tool for manipulation and supression of people throughout recorded history. As a result, there is an inbred polarization of people about the two subjects. The science-minded seeking to rebuke and debunk 'believers' who tend to mindlessly echo scriptural passages ad nauseum (which often doesn't have much logic)...and believers trying to damn science to support 'weaknesses in their own faith'.
Other than the 'moneylender' parable, I don't remember Christ having an issue with a good debate. He certainly didn't simply throw scripture at the Pharisees, since there wasn't any (except the old testament). While the gospels are sketchy in detail about how he lectured, I think he probably could hold a mean philosophy session!
Science is often villified as 'attempting to change the word', but I think that's an error on the part of the churches and over-zealous, controlling preachers. There are clearly places in the bible that require all of LITERAL, FIGURATIVE, and METAPHORICAL understanding to derive the meaning of a given set of passages. Most camps get hung on interpreting it one way, all the way through and that simply isn't possible...It's more properly a question of what style applies to which passages. Science-minded don't like the unthinking adherence to a blind interpretation style with out evidence of reason. Defenders do quote certain tracts to ignore exploring the word, and I think that is done wrongly.
I find the bible to be quite lacking some detail as to 'How?' and 'In what way?' certain things are to be done, and were done. I truly believe we were given the capacity to explore that so that we could both be entertained, and marvel at 'the handiwork'. Had the churches been less fearful of losing control, and perhaps stronger in their professed faith, maybe the two could blend together in the way they may have been intended all along. 
| | 2/7/2008 6:03:02 PM | Why do the weak seek to suppress faith? What are they afraid of? | | krupa1
Abilene, TX
age: 40
| Are you saying that you wish that religious law, modalities of lifestyle and personal actions were more ridgedly implemented by the Religious establishment?......not asking this as a smart-ass Gutt....honestly curious.
[Edited 2/7/2008 6:06:17 PM]
| | 2/7/2008 6:26:42 PM | Why do the weak seek to suppress faith? What are they afraid of? | | 
kathrynm
Roscommon, MI
age: 36
| If it harm none, what you will.
I don't throw rocks, I live in a glass house.
| | 2/7/2008 7:00:42 PM | Why do the weak seek to suppress faith? What are they afraid of? | |
gutthans
Deland, FL
age: 56
| Krup: Are you saying that you wish that religious law, modalities of lifestyle and personal actions were more ridgedly implemented by the Religious establishment?......not asking this as a smart-ass Gutt....honestly curious.
Religion, as with any belief system (conservative, liberal, war-monger, dove...) contains within it an element of self-supporting nonsense. The unthinking either follow or attack as lemmings. The thinking either manipulate the system for their gain, or seek to enlighten the lemmings. Attacking OR following, neither is interested in the truth as much as making themselves comfortable with their own choice. It is quite disconcerting to live a life based on nonsense...and awaken to that fact...ergo 'the other guy is totally wrong'.
To your question, No...I would prefer that 'religion' see itself as a method to dispense the message, not to BE the message. Less focus on the letter of the law...more focus on the 'spirit' of the law.
[Edited 2/7/2008 8:00:10 PM]
| | 2/7/2008 8:20:56 PM | Why do the weak seek to suppress faith? What are they afraid of? | | krupa1
Abilene, TX
age: 40
| We could focus on spirit all day....it yeilds no tangible results......we can pray into one hand and shit in the other....which hand gets full first? Survival instinct has a certain amount of self-supporting non-sense as well.
I am not knocking you dude. Just seems like a lot of tapdancing around what you want to say.......not sure if you are simply being politically correct or simply not wanting to come across as rude or impolite. Like I said...I ain't knocking you man.
[Edited 2/7/2008 8:22:35 PM]
| | 2/8/2008 4:57:55 AM | Why do the weak seek to suppress faith? What are they afraid of? | |
gutthans
Deland, FL
age: 56
| Krup: We could focus on spirit all day....it yeilds no tangible results......
Not 'spirit' as in spiritual, but rather as in the 'sense' of the idea. The reason I don't come down too firmly on a single way, is simply that I believe most different ways to do things are probably correct.
I tend to want to know first 'what is the desired outcome?', then I have a basis for determining whether an action is viable or not. I much prefer to stay away from terms like right/wrong, good/bad and instead use effective/ineffective, or useful/non-useful, and so on. A great deal of the language we use everyday is subtly coercive but we don't see that. Over time it shifts our understanding from neutral and criterion based to prejudiced and predetermined.
I think we forget that language is not only a great descriptor of behavior, but also functions as a powerful determinant as well. In effect, we often blindly think ourselves into a reality rather than consciously construct it with true purpose.
[Edited 2/8/2008 5:19:15 AM]
| | 2/8/2008 5:29:40 AM | Why do the weak seek to suppress faith? What are they afraid of? | | rodlynn
New Britain, CT
age: 45
| Gut,
If faith is what carries me through the struggles of life and gives me a purpose to get out of bed, believing what the bible teaches about God being the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him (He 11:6) who are you to determine weather my experience with faith is ineffective? If I am stating clearly that it works for me and I believe it can work for as well, is my belief ineffective?
| | 2/8/2008 5:42:57 AM | Why do the weak seek to suppress faith? What are they afraid of? | |
gutthans
Deland, FL
age: 56
| Krup: To get back to where I think you were going, we first have to buy in to some sense of an absolute truth of existence (or not). God is very convenient because it provides a direction and answer. Science is convenient because it provides the same. Where we get into trouble is trying to extrapolate beyond what we have 'in hand' to infer 'what comes next'.
We are creatures of pattern (habit). Reinventing ourselves each day is very tiring. Having certainty is less energy expense...an evolutionary +, I suppose. Whether or not there is an absolute truth may be a survival need, and not really true.
People seem determined to support one notion or the other and then 'break it down' into various expressions of behavior. I suspect that the actual purpose is to reaffirm certainty. Faith for many, is a form of certainty; science is equally certain in a different way.
[Edited 2/8/2008 5:46:20 AM]
| | 2/8/2008 5:44:56 AM | Why do the weak seek to suppress faith? What are they afraid of? | |
gutthans
Deland, FL
age: 56
| ROD: is my belief ineffective?
Absolutely not...go back to what I said...what is YOUR desired outcome? If you know what you want, and your belief gets you there, you have the answer that is effective...for you.
I likewise, take certain things 'on faith'. These are things I cannot prove to others who don't share the same certainty. But my explanations work for me. When they cease to work, I look for better answers.
If I have an explanation that has a 'ring' of 'truth' to someone else, ...then Goodie! But don't swallow it because I said so...(like we unfortunately do when tuning in to very authoritative religious broadcasts or newspaper articles...).
[Edited 2/8/2008 5:53:01 AM]
| | 2/8/2008 5:53:16 AM | Why do the weak seek to suppress faith? What are they afraid of? | | 
jewelz5
Monteagle, TN
age: 54 online now!
| rodlynn, because it is not effective, you only think your faith does something for you. Your perception is severely distorted by the deception that was taught to you into thinking one thing, when another thing entirely is taking place. Your frame of reference is based upon the fact that you were schooled to believe that the lie is the truth, for your entire life. Your faith was handed down to you by someone else that was also lied to and you believed them. It is false hope and essentially leading you to your slaughter with the rest of the sheeple. You took on someone elses belief because you did not know what to believe on your own.
You cannot figure out what that would be until you get off the merry go round of your model of life that was painted before you by design. It is not working because you are stuck in groundhog day repeating the same things expecting different results going nowhere fast. The same goes for about 98% of the rest of the sheeple in here. The sooner you realize that and figure out you are a packmule for somebody, the sooner you can come into your very own power rather than relying on someone elses idea of what that would be, because none of it works. Everyone is deluding themselves talking about their faith when they really don't have any, they have false hope in a type of God that does not exist. They need to snap out of it, they have been lied to on a grand scale in order to get you to jump off a bridge when your programmer handler gives you the command while you are in your Jesus trance.
[Edited 2/8/2008 5:55:20 AM]
| | 2/8/2008 5:57:20 AM | Why do the weak seek to suppress faith? What are they afraid of? | |
gutthans
Deland, FL
age: 56
| Jewelz...any minute now, I'm expecting a beam of light to de-molecularize your corporeal substance and transport it back to the mothership!!!
So is your criticism more about the manner that 'faith' has been perverted over time, or the concept of a higher, absolute truth (morality)?
[Edited 2/8/2008 6:00:32 AM]
| | 2/8/2008 6:21:22 AM | Why do the weak seek to suppress faith? What are they afraid of? | | rodlynn
New Britain, CT
age: 45
| jewelz writes:
rodlynn, because it is not effective, you only think your faith does something for you. Your perception is severely distorted by the deception that was taught to you into thinking one thing, when another thing entirely is taking place. Your frame of reference is based upon the fact that you were schooled to believe that the lie is the truth, for your entire life. Your faith was handed down to you by someone else that was also lied to and you believed them. It is false hope and essentially leading you to your slaughter with the rest of the sheeple. You took on someone elses belief because you did not know what to believe on your own.
You cannot figure out what that would be until you get off the merry go round of your model of life that was painted before you by design. It is not working because you are stuck in groundhog day repeating the same things expecting different results going nowhere fast. The same goes for about 98% of the rest of the sheeple in here. The sooner you realize that and figure out you are a packmule for somebody, the sooner you can come into your very own power rather than relying on someone elses idea of what that would be, because none of it works. Everyone is deluding themselves talking about their faith when they really don't have any, they have false hope in a type of God that does not exist. They need to snap out of it, they have been lied to on a grand scale in order to get you to jump off a bridge when your programmer handler gives you the command while you are in your Jesus trance.
Jewelz, proves my point over and over again, he is weak and afraid to stand on his own.
He is lacking in substance and backbone, to weak to stand on his own, he needs and craves an audience, without such he is only a worm trying to survive in this big confusing world, he is seeking to extinguish my faith and has no clue that he can’t even control his own feeble existence without a circle of cronies to support him. Those with faith do not need him, however he cannot survive without us, We give him a purpose to exist without such purpose he will die. I pity the fool.
[Edited 2/8/2008 6:32:19 AM]
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