My main confusion over Christian Theology.

2/19/2008 8:11:51 AM	My main confusion over Christian Theology.
flimsyman25 Alton, IL age: 26	This is touched on in another thread, but I really want to get people's specific opinions on this particular topic. Jesus Christ dies on the cross. Simple enough. Now, mainstream Christian Doctrine holds that: A. All of mankind are sinners, and in need of redemption (regardless of whether I agree with this, it does hold true from within a Biblical worldview). B. Christ was morally perfect, the only human being completely without sin (again, holds true within a Christian mindset). C. (This is the part that gives me trouble) The only possible way for us to be forgiven is for Jesus Christ to be brutally killed. Okay, I have problems with the first two bits, but the main point is that you cannot atone for doing wrong by punishing another innocent person. You just cannot do it. It doesn't work. The only just and ethical way to punish someone for doing something wrong is to punish that person, and not a scapegoat, especially the most innocent person ever. I just . . . Nyrrrr. It doesn't make sense. Thoughts?
2/19/2008 8:51:18 AM	My main confusion over Christian Theology.
jewelz5 Monteagle, TN age: 53 online now!	hey flimsy, I think the answer is easy and you are absolutely right. Go with your instincts on this one. If it does not feel right, it most probably is not right. Your inherent intuitive instincts are telling you the answer loud and clear that there is something terribly wrong with this picture. It is a scam from hell to get the sheeple to turn over the keys to their kindom to their God the government, the God of this world. The God of this world is not the most high God which resides inside you. The term God is used loosly in order to describe your own inherent power and authority to make determinations on your own without having to be saved to do it. You did nothing wrong by being born into this world and no one can save you but you. Though if you send me $39.95 I can help you speed up the process just alittle. If you send me more, I can make it go alittle faster.
2/19/2008 10:04:31 AM	My main confusion over Christian Theology.
mitchell1221 Chattanooga, TN age: 45	Isiah 53:5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.
2/19/2008 11:51:08 AM	My main confusion over Christian Theology.
rodlynn New Britain, CT age: 45	filmsy writes: It doesn't make sense. Do you really seek to know why GOD did what he did or are you standing in judgement of GOD? The answers are available if you really want them otherwise you will always remain blinded to the truth, it is writen in GOD's word.
2/19/2008 12:24:18 PM	My main confusion over Christian Theology.
flimsyman25 Alton, IL age: 26	Rodlynn: It is possible for one to genuinely seek to know why god did what the bible says he did, and then judge him accordingly. If you believe that humans do not have the right to question god and judge his actions, then I understand why you would not see the logical flaws in punishing an innocent for someone else's crime (seeing as how it was god's unquestionable plan). I suppose it's an irreconcilable difference in our basic worldviews, then. You consider truth to be synonymous with "GOD'S word", and I consider truth to be that which jives with reality, independent of what any religious text says. I have read "GOD'S word" relatively thoroughly, and I do not consider it to be any great source of truth. Incidentally, you didn't actually answer the question. Do you agree with the mainstream Christian theology I reference in the OP, and if so, can you explain how it could be ethical to kill an innocent man for the crimes of someone else? [Edited 2/19/2008 12:25:06 PM]
2/19/2008 1:10:46 PM	My main confusion over Christian Theology.
rodlynn New Britain, CT age: 45	I will post an answer to this question by this weekend, I don’t want to rush on this one.
2/19/2008 2:20:33 PM	My main confusion over Christian Theology.
gestas Runnemede, NJ age: 22	The "mainstream" theology you are citing is much more detailed and nuanced than you seem to think. I won't bore you with a million different opinions and interpretations. My interpretation (as it currently stands) is that Jesus died as the ultimate wake-up call. He revealed that the Law (what the Jews had been using as the basis of obedience to God and therefore, salvation) was insufficient because no human would ever follow it perfectly, and in fact that we are incapable of doing so. This was a truth that was not considered, known, or expressed in the Judaism of his day. In addition, Jesus unveiled the greed, politics, and hypocrisy of the Jewish and Roman powers. But more than this, his sacrifice reveals our own humanity, in that this perfect man who did no wrong, who taught only love, who demanded that men give money to the poor before the temple, who rejected material gain and attempts by his followers to crown him king, was brutally and slowly executed by consent of the priests, the politicians, the criminals, the soldiers, and the crowd who had welcomed him into their city in triumph. In other words, people are a problem. And the very first thing that a Christian (or someone seeking to understand Christianity) must know is that we really are messed up and that we need help. Now the soteriological statement occurs on the cross, as Jesus is dying: "Father, forgive them. They don't know what they are doing." How true! And one of the primary arguements for the divinity of Christ is his forgiveness from the cross. I also believe that this forgiveness and salvation is offered to all mankind for all time, and it proclaims the forgiveness of God, who is love and peace and mercy. We are forgiven BY Christ, and therefore FOR him by God the Father. Which takes us into Trinitarian theology... which is so much worse than what we've been talking about. There are other paths of understanding and many, many more ways of saying it. But I hope this helped... Shalom.
2/19/2008 3:02:36 PM	My main confusion over Christian Theology.
rickbfun Whitby, ON age: 30	he gave himself willingly ! when the soldiers came for jesus his diciples tried to protect him , but jesus told them to back down he did it for you and me so that we wouldnt have to die for our sins god loves you so much that he watched his own son suffer on a cross
2/19/2008 3:19:10 PM	My main confusion over Christian Theology.
adameve Lacombe, LA age: 46	Amen Rick, you are a wise man and a bless man.you know the LORD, JESUS. I see you in heaven, and a blessing to talk to. THANK YOU RICK, GOD is with You.
2/20/2008 12:26:35 PM	My main confusion over Christian Theology.
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL age: 55	Flimsyman25, look at it this way. Suppose Joe Jones owed $20,000 to the bank but couldn't pay it. Suppose Joe Jones' good friend Sam Smith had plenty of money, and, out of the goodness of his heart, paid the bank the $20,000. Mankind, in sinning, in rebelling against God, incurred a debt to God, a debt mankind could not possibly pay, so Jesus paid the debt for us. Sin is an ugly, ugly thing. Someone has to pay for it. And Jesus was good enough to do just that. Unfortunately Protestants sometimes take the above truth too far. They think that just because Jesus died on the cross for us, we don't have to do anything to reap the benefits except believe in Jesus. What they forget is, belief in Jesus means believing in everything Jesus taught, including the necessity of going to Confession, doing penance for sin, avoiding sin and the near occasions of sin, the doing of good works, a the reception of His Body and Blood by means of receiving Communion, veneration of His Blessed Mother, and obedience to His Vicar on Earth the pope. "We must bear in our bodies what is lacking in the sifferings of Christ", says St. Paul in scripture.
2/20/2008 1:32:17 PM	My main confusion over Christian Theology.
curiousone2 Springfield, IL age: 42 online now!	The New Testament, The christian Bible, was written in Greek, the greek word for sin, means to Miss the mark of what is right. jesus message WAS don't trust the Church that is really the government in disguise, tell you what is RIGHT with GOD, they only know what is right for Caesar, they are biased, ( he threw the money changers OUT of the temple, ) He was also saying, that you should be seeking GOD, which is within us, WE are part of GOD, the very Institution he was demonstrating against, took him and his message and distorted it, into the very thing he was telling us to reject. but he said Don't break the law as well, even though HE was doing it when he threw the money changers out, and was preaching in the over crowded city, on the most important Holy Day they had, people would eat and sleep on the roofs, because it was such an important Jewish holiday, jesus KNEW what he was doing. The Catholic church turned jesus into a GOD, Not Jesus, When Jesus was asked what the most important commandment was, HE said there are only 2 that are important, 1. love God, 2. love each other. The sin that he died for, was the sin of blindly worshipping GOD, because if you are not aligned with GOD and his Kingdom, your actions are wrong, a sin. he died for our sins the same way that Martin Luther King died for the sins of the people that perpetuated hatred by supporting the Jim Crow system, and the racist system. by releasing us from repeating them
2/20/2008 2:33:45 PM	My main confusion over Christian Theology.
flimsyman25 Alton, IL age: 26	Ludlowlowell: That's exactly my point. The typical mainstream theology treats morality as a financial system; that we owe a "debt" that just needs to be paid (regardless of how it's paid or who pays it). My whole line of thought here is that morality may have been thought of as some kind of financial system thousands of years ago, but today, we have a little bit better understanding of how justice works (hopefully). Since Jesus dying for our sins obviously refers to a moral system, a better analogy would be a court of law. Suppose Bob the Guy eats three people (against their will, just for the sake of argument). Evidence is overwhelming. He's convicted. He is guilty of wrongdoing (like the human race is guilty of "sinning"). Now, how does Bob the Guy atone for his wrongdoing? Well, he fries in the electric chair, or rots in a federal prison for the rest of his life. Because he did something wrong, and has to pay the consequences. Now imagine that the court has declared that the only just and reasonable punishment for Bob the People-Eating Guy is for Nancy the Little Girl, a completely random two-year-old girl to be tortured to death. Now, as the story goes, Jesus volunteered, but does that matter? Would everything be okay if Nancy volunteers to help out Bob? We would never allow her to do so; the absurd notion would never be suggested! I mean, am I crazy or is this a gross failure of logic? Mainstream Christian theology says that Bob cannot possibly atone for his wrongdoing, because only an innocent person can do that. This is the complete polar opposite of actual, genuine justice!
2/20/2008 2:50:41 PM	My main confusion over Christian Theology.
flimsyman25 Alton, IL age: 26	I'm not sure, Curiousone2, that depends on how one defines "died for." If you say that MLK died as a result of immorality, then I agree. I think that the actions of those in power who felt threatened by him and thus considered him an enemy behaved immorally (understatement of the year). But that's not what Christian theology says. Jesus didn't die as a consequence of our immoral actions, mainstream Christian theology says that he died to atone for our moral actions. Staggeringly different concepts. I do not think that King died to atone for anything. I think that his death was a tragedy that should not have happened under any circumstances. It did not solve other wrongdoing, it only added to the list of despicable racist acts that have occured in this country. A very, very different idea; MLK's death was not necessary to atone for the wrongdoing of others; the theology says that Jesus' death was necessary to set right the sins of others. [Edited 2/20/2008 2:50:56 PM]
2/20/2008 5:30:44 PM	My main confusion over Christian Theology.
curiousone2 Springfield, IL age: 42 online now!	flimsy, I hear your argument, but, I think that the for comes into it, because he KNEW what was going to happen to him when he did it. He knew they were going to come looking for them, he predicted it before it happened, and he did it anyway, it is the difference between a victim and a martyr, when someone dies there, if it is violence, they still say the peron was martyrd, not murdered. and martyrd means to die FOR something. and you are right MLK, did die as a consequence of the movement not FOR it. and right at the moment, I can't think of any others except for slaves that died helping others escape, because they did it KNOWING the consequence, but I do se why you would think that, I just don't agree actually, I think one could argue that Mandella did the same, and so did martin Luther, AND Joan of ARC. there consequences just werent that severe except for Joans [Edited 2/20/2008 5:32:41 PM]
2/20/2008 5:58:55 PM	My main confusion over Christian Theology.
queenofhearts61 Seymour, IN age: 62	Not only do we supposed to owe a debt, but we owed it the second we were conceived. I have a problem with that theology too. How could someone else pay for our sins? And how could god be in heaven and a man on earth at the same time?????? There is much in the bible that makes no sense and when you keep asking why, you get told it is a sin to question.

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