| 3/13/2008 12:10:47 PM | Upon this rock... | | 
dana1956
New Braunfels, TX
age: 51 online now!
| If we look at Matthew 16:18 Jesus said " And I say also unto thee, That thou are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (19) And I will give unto thee the the keys of the kingdom of heaven:..."
As I look at this and ask myself "what rock" ? I must go back to see what Jesus said before.
First I myself must understand that a rock is a solid foundation to be built on as in other parables mention, so what is the foundation Jesus speaks of?
Well if we look at verses 14-17 we see Jesus ask his disciples who he is, only Peter says the Christ. Jesus then replies that it was not flesh that revealed it but only by the Father that this is known to Peter.
I submit to you that it is this revelation that is the foundation of the church and not so much a man. And the gates of hell will prevail against no believer and not just those who listen to Peter.
By the way my study bible says Peter was the first great leader in the church at Jerusalem ( I think it must mean Christian Church)
It is the revelation that makes the difference in my opinion
| | 3/13/2008 2:31:15 PM | Upon this rock... | | 
dbsuma
Lakewood, OH
age: 40
| I think the rock that Jesus meant is the one that he will use on Judgment day to bash your little brains out with for randomly posting scripture every god dam day, annoying the living shit out of anyone looking for an actual post with substance to be debated.
| | 3/13/2008 3:43:00 PM | Upon this rock... | | 
billingsdreamer
Billings, MT
age: 64
| I think the rock that Jesus meant is the one that he will use on Judgment day to bash your little brains out with for randomly posting scripture every god dam day, annoying the living shit out of anyone looking for an actual post with substance to be debated.
Another bully. Just what the world needs.
Art
| | 3/13/2008 5:01:03 PM | Upon this rock... | | 
darlenemi51
Onaway, MI
age: 56
| Dana, That is great to hear someone to say that, did you ,as I did receive
that as a revelation? We were all in a place praying in the spirit, and someone
read that scripture, and the group was puzzling it out, when it came to me
from way down in my spirit. I just love the way He gives us knowledge like that.
Darlene
| | 3/13/2008 11:42:42 PM | Upon this rock... | | 
missette
Knoxville, TN
age: 65
| Dana Jesus is that rock.Jesus ask peter who do they say that i am.Then Jesus said peter who do you say that i am and Peter said you are the son of the living God and Jesus said on this rock (Jesus)i will build my church.
| | 3/14/2008 6:02:54 AM | Upon this rock... | |
dana1956
New Braunfels, TX
age: 51 online now!
| Darlene yes it was revelation as plain as day.
Missette, thank you for your comments but I believe the rock that Jesus speaks of is the fact that Peter recognized Him as the Christ. It is this fact that is the basis for our belief. It is not the belief that Jesus lived, but the fact that He is the Christ that His church is based on. I think this is the rock. We have to start somewhere and it is this understanding that we all build on and we are His church... not some building.
dbsuma, let me explain why your comments are so important to me...
| | 3/14/2008 6:20:15 AM | Upon this rock... | |
kingdavid2012
Fitchburg, MA
age: 45
| Yes and it is also the rock mentioned in Daniel in the Kings dream which Daniel interpited for the King of Babilon. The returning Messiah is the rock that destroys all the nations, religions, and kingdoms of earth and establishes His New Kingdom here on earth.
| | 3/14/2008 6:23:09 AM | Upon this rock... | |
kingdavid2012
Fitchburg, MA
age: 45
| Yeshua said Do you see these buildings? I tell you that not one stone will be left upon another when the Son of man comes says the Lord. Mat: 24
| | 3/14/2008 6:24:17 AM | Upon this rock... | |
kingdavid2012
Fitchburg, MA
age: 45
| dana your very right the knowledge of Yeshua being the Christ is the foundation of the true church.
| | 3/14/2008 2:17:49 PM | Upon this rock... | |
missette
Knoxville, TN
age: 65
| Dana you misunderstood me Jesus is Christ and Christ is Jesus whats your point,I didn't say anything about a building.Christ is the head of the church,He'll build his church him being the the son of the living God and us knowing that and flesh and blood didnot reveal that to us.not every one knows that or beleives it.
| | 3/15/2008 9:24:32 PM | Upon this rock... | |
billingsdreamer
Billings, MT
age: 64
| This may be long, but I think it could be of interest to some:
Some teach that it was on Peter that Christ would build the church. Peter's original name was Simon. However, Jesus gave him the surname Cephas which actually means a stone. Thus, the Roman Catholic Church reads this to say that upon Peter, the stone, Jesus will build His church. Thus they teach that Peter was the first Pope, and whatever Peter, or modern day Popes say "from their chair" while on this earth it is binding in heaven.
However, Peter was not the first Pope. There never was a single leader of the Church. Remember that the apostle Paul had to correct Peter about the issue of eating with uncircumcised Gentiles. This caused the great conference in Acts 15 in which Peter admitted the error that God had originally shown him not to call any man common or unclean.
Peter was sent to preach to the Israelites--not the Romans:
It is highly unlikely that Peter went to Rome to preach or start a church. Peter and the other apostles were sent to the circumcision, the people of Israel, not the Gentiles in Rome.
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
The apostle Paul was sent to the Gentiles--not Peter.
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles) Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
A Simon in Rome
There was a notable one who did go to Rome, however, and his name was also Simon. This man had picked up some of the teaching of Christianity and mixed it with gnosticism. His name was Simon Magus. Further, he called Himself Simon Pater, meaning Simon father. He gained a big following in Rome teaching that He was the manifestation of God on this earth (Acts 8:9-10). He was the first Father--the first Pope figure if you will--not Peter. In that context, it is important to remember that Jesus had said to the apostles to call no man father in a religious sense (Matt 23:9).
Thus, when Peter correctly stated that Jesus was the promised Messiah, the Son of God, Jesus said that the Father had revealed this to Him. He then said, you are Peter, a small stone, and upon this massive Rock, He would build His Church. The massive rock was who Jesus really was. It was the truth that He was the promised Messiah who in fact was the rock of the Old Testament. The Church is built on this solid foundation. Jesus is the promised Savior of the world and Lord of the Old Covenant.
Building on a solid foundation
Jesus was using the same principle He preached for us. We must build on a solid foundation. There is no other foundation than Jesus Christ.
Luk 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: Luk 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
The Messiah, the Christ is the "rock" the Lord of the Old Covenant:
Deu 32:15 But Jeshurun waxed fat... he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
2Sa 22:47 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation.
Psa 18:46 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.
Some are offended by the Rock:
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Jesus Christ is the Rock, the foundation of the church today, and He will be the foundation stone of the future millennial Kingdom on this earth:
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
The gates of hell?
When Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against it (the church), the word hell is simply the word grave. Thus, the church would never die out. It still exists today, and it is has the same look and same teachings as the Jerusalem Church of the first century.
The Keys to the Kingdom?
When Jesus said that He would give Him the Keys of the Kingdom, he meant the ability to bind or loose judgments. He did not mean that he could change doctrines. He could not change the law of God. He could only make judgments based on the preexisting law.
Further, Peter could not make such judgments alone. Jesus kept teaching the apostles and 2 chapters later, in the same context, Jesus clarified how judgments between brethren were to take place. The two people were to settle it alone. If that failed, the alleged victim was to take a witness or two, and that failing there had to be a hearing and two or more of the church leadership had to agree. Peter could not make decisions alone as some Pope figure. As Jesus taught them:
Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Summary
Thus, Matt 16:18 is not a basis for a Pope like figure in the Church today. Further, the rock was who Jesus was, the promised Messiah, and He would build His Church on this foundation. Peter was to be a stone, a chip off the block as it were. He, like all men was subject to flaws and mistakes. He could only make judgments regarding how to apply the law of God and at that his judgment had to be seconded as we see in the conference in Acts 15.
A final point that Jesus makes about Himself:
If we fall on on Christ, we will be broken. We will become broken in spirit. However, if we resist Him, and He is forced to fall on us, we will ultimately be destroyed:
Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder
Art
| | 3/16/2008 11:41:27 AM | Upon this rock... | |
ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
age: 55
| Somewhere in St. Paul's writings, St. Paul refers to Jesus, the Rock of our salvation. So we know that Jesus was referred to as a rock in by the early Christians. When Jesus says to His apostle Simon "Thou art Peter [Peter being another word for rock] [remember that up to this time the man was known only as Simon, it is Jesus here who is giving him the new name Peter] and upon this rock I will build my Church" it is clear that Jesus is identifying Peter with Himself, in effect appointing Peter as His vicar (stand-in). Notice Jesus didn't say "I am Peter, I am rock, and upon the rock of myself I will build the Church", no, He didn't do that. He looked Simon straight in the eye and said "YOU are Peter, YOU are rock, upon YOU I will build my Church". In effect He was saying, You, Peter, are now a rock, just like I, Jesus, am the rock, and now we are closely identified, and you, and your successors, will be my vicar on Earth, so whatever you bind on Earth (whatever rules you make for the believers) will be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on Earth (whatever former Church or papal rules that you decide to repeal, or whatever indulgences you issue for the suffering souls in Purgatory) will be loosed in Heaven. Another words Jesus is telling peter that He will back Peter up in all of Peter's decisions.
Did the early Christians see Peter as the pope, in the modern sense of the word? They certainly did! One need only read the Book of Acts to see that Peter is clearly the man in charge. Peter calls all the shots and makes all the decisions. Some Catholics think that this makes the pope above all criticism, but that is not true. St. Paul did indeed criticize Peter when Peter was wrong. Peter was all set to decree that non-Jews who converted to Christianity had to obey all the Jewish dietary laws, and Paul rightly criticized him for that, but before Peter could make his decree, God showed Peter a vision so that Peter would make the right decree (that the Jewish dietary laws were not meant for the Christian Church). This shows how God protects the pope from making any errors on matters of teaching about faith or morals, what the Catholic Church refers to as papal infallibility. Papal infallibility refers only to the pope's teaching authority, not to all of his decisions, and certainly not to the pope's personal life. Papal infallibility is a very limited thing, but on matters of faith, such as when the pope decreed in 1950 that Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven, and on matters of teaching about morals, as when the pope decreed in 1931 and again in 1968 that birth control was immoral, then the pope is infallible. (By the way, the pope did not introduce new doctrine on any of these occasions, bothe the doctrine of Mary's assumption and the belief that contraception is woring were believed by Chrisrtians as far back as there are historical records.)
The apostles were not perfect men, we all know that. But when the apostles Matthew, John, Paul, and Peter were writing those books that became part of scripture, God prevented them from making any errors, in other words He inspired these books of the Bible, in other words God made these men infallible FOR THE LIMITED PURPOSE OF WRITING SCRIPTURE. So, in a very limited set of circumstances, the pope is infallible.
But even in those matters wehere the pope is not infallible, as for instance when he decides who to appoint to which church office, or when he decides what prayers are to be said at Mass, we owe the pope obedience, because the pope, like Jesus Himself, is the rock upon which the Church is built.
| | 3/16/2008 12:35:13 PM | Upon this rock... | |
dana1956
New Braunfels, TX
age: 51 online now!
| "He didn't do that. He looked Simon straight in the eye and said "YOU are Peter, YOU are rock, upon YOU I will build my Church". In effect He was saying, You, Peter, are now a rock, just like I, Jesus, am the rock, and now we are closely identified, and you, and your successors, will be my vicar on Earth, so whatever you bind on Earth (whatever rules you make for the believers) will be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on Earth (whatever former Church or papal rules that you decide to repeal, or whatever indulgences you issue for the suffering souls in Purgatory) will be loosed in Heaven. Another words Jesus is telling peter that He will back Peter up in all of Peter's decisions. "
Please allow me Ludlow to quote the KJ bible and only the part that matters to what I am about to say. Matthew 16:18 "That thou are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church." I do not see Jesus saying upon "you Peter" I will build my church. I do believe as some of the other posters have said, It is the revelation of Christ that is the rock. That IS the foundation of the church, not some man.
As far as Peter changing rules and that is what is meant about binding and loosing... I tend to think Jesus more likely meant that if Peter boung a spirit or loosed blessings, that because of his belief in Christ he was able to do the same as Christ himself.
What I think about the things said by Jesus to pretty much anyone, it is true for all, not so much for any one person.
Peter was commissioned to preach to the Jews, and last I knew the Jews were not Catholic.
| | 3/16/2008 10:06:12 PM | Upon this rock... | |
missette
Knoxville, TN
age: 65
| (The subject)Who do they say that i am, and peter said some say a prophet,some say etc. then Jesus said yes Peter but who do you say that i am and Peter said you are the Christ the son of the living God (on what Peter said )is what Jesus will build his church on Jesus said ok peter flesh and blood has not reviled this to you, but my Father has.Any one who doesn't believe Jesus is the son of God is anti Christ.G.B. Missette
| | 3/19/2008 9:46:38 AM | Upon this rock... | |
billingsdreamer
Billings, MT
age: 64
| You, Peter, are now a rock, just like I, Jesus, am the rock, and now we are closely identified, and you, and your successors, will be my vicar on Earth, so whatever you bind on Earth (whatever rules you make for the believers) will be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on Earth (whatever former Church or papal rules that you decide to repeal, or whatever indulgences you issue for the suffering souls in Purgatory) will be loosed in Heaven. Another words Jesus is telling peter that He will back Peter up in all of Peter's decisions.
(I). If Jesus was saying that Peter was a rock like Jesus was, then He would have used the same word. However, He does not. For example.
Christ was the rock (petra) that followed them
Christ is the rock (petra) of offence
Upon this rock (petra) I will build my church
Petra is a a massive rock formation in the desert. The word means:Thayer Definition:
1) a rock, cliff or ledge
1a) a projecting rock, crag, rocky ground
1b) a rock, a large stone
1c) metaphorically a man like a rock, by reason of his firmness and strength of soul
Simon's name was changed to Cephas, meaning a rock or stone. It is a smaller rock, a piece of a rock. G4074 ?e´t??? Petros a (piece of) rock (larger than G3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle: - Peter, rock. Compare G2786.
Thus, Christ surnamed Peter cephas or piece of the rock. In other words he was like a chip off the block. Was he a stand alone leader? No! Notice Paul's words:
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
James, Peter, and John seemed to be pillars. They were all leaders among the other apostles, but no single one was the leader over all of God's servants.
Notice that Christ also gave surnames to James and John. He called them sons of thunder because they wanted to call fire down from heaven and destroy their enemies like Elijah in the past and the two witnesses in the future. What does this mean? It was an affectionate term. It did not mean that they were the spokesmen for the group or anything like it.
(II). Christ never said that Peter would take Christ's place on earth
Peter was not the vicar of Christ. No one stands in Christ's place on this earth. Christ said that what Peter bound on earth would be bound in heaven. In other words, Christ would inspire the decision so that it would be the decision made in heaven. Not that the apostle would make a decision and the human decision was binding on God.
Further, Peter could not make a decision, and then decide to rescind it. That is just human error and it is not of God.
Beyond that, any thought that Peter could make decisions alone is dispelled in Matt 18 where Christ makes it clear that two or more must make any decision together for Jesus to be a part of it.
Did the early Christians see Peter as the pope, in the modern sense of the word? They certainly did! One need only read the Book of Acts to see that Peter is clearly the man in charge. Peter calls all the shots and makes all the decisions.
(III). PETER DID NOT ACT ALONE.
He was in a leadership role, no question about that, but in every case, Christ sent them out two by two. Two or more are needed to make a decision. There is no question that Peter was extroverted and the first to speak. However, on most of the pages of Acts there is both Peter and John.
Act 3:1 Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour.
Act 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
Act 4:19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
(IV). THE APOSTLES ACTED TOGETHER
Act 5:12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Act 5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.
Act 6:2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
(V). THE APOSTLES SENT PETER
Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
(VI). AFTER ACTS 9 PAUL BECOMES THE SINGLE FOCUS OF THE WORK OF THE APOSTLES:
Gal 2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
God accepts no man's person. Those who appeared to be pillars added nothing to Paul.
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
So, Peter was a leader among the circumcised (Israelites) and Paul was a leader among the Gentiles. Were there two Popes? Of course not. There never was a Pope. Further Pope simply means
(VII). JAMES MADE THE FINAL DECISION AT THE CONFERENCE IN ACTS 15 NOT PETER:
Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: . . . Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
James made the decision here because He was Pastor of the Jerusalem church and it was his friends who caused the problem. Peter did not make the decision.
Art
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