| 5/15/2008 12:33:04 AM | Real 9/11 by Real Engineers and Real Facts | | justme86
Waco, TX
age: 22
| • No steel-frame building, before or after the WTC buildings, has ever collapsed due to fire. But explosives can effectively sever steel columns, he says.
Why does he even mention other buildings? WTC had its own design unlike others with few buildings after even resemble the design of the WTC.
As anyone can plainly see, those other fires in standing buildings were not started by the explosion of large aircraft which also took out outer supports.
| | 5/15/2008 12:34:01 AM | Real 9/11 by Real Engineers and Real Facts | | justme86
Waco, TX
age: 22
| There is slam dunk evidence of controlled demolition. Electron microscope analysis of steel spheres from WTC site proves thermate, which proves the collapse of twin towers was an act of deliberate arson.
Thermate is a high temperature excellerant used in arson.. those buildings were rigged for demolition...between the time Flt. 175 hit WTC2 and the time the building collapsed only 56 minutes had elapsed.
56 minutes isn't enough time to develop a fire hot enough or large enough to even have a remote chance of getting enough steel hot enough to be a factor to bring down those buildings.
Source? I think you got soo excited that you forgot that you have to prove something.
| | 5/15/2008 8:08:14 AM | Real 9/11 by Real Engineers and Real Facts | | 
scorpiomoon
Brattleboro, VT
age: 58
| 7 World Trade Center
Main article: 7 World Trade Center
In 1980 Larry Silverstein won a bid to lease and develop the last undeveloped parcel from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey to build the 47-story 7 World Trade Center.
World Trade Center
Main article: World Trade Center
During the 1990s, New York was suffering from the effects of the 1987 stock market crash leading to high vacancy rates at the World Trade Center. George Pataki became Governor of New York in 1995 on a campaign of cutting costs, including privatizing the World Trade Center. A sale of the property was considered too complex, so it was decided by the Port Authority to open a 99-year lease to competitive bidding.
In January 2001, Silverstein, via Silverstein Properties and Westfield America, made a $3.2 billion bid for the lease to the World Trade Center. Silverstein was outbid by $50 million by Vornado Realty, with Boston Properties and Brookfield Properties also competing for the lease. However, Vornado withdrew and Silverstein's bid for the lease to the World Trade Center was accepted on July 24, 2001, seven weeks before the buildings were destroyed in the September 11, 2001 attacks. This was the first time in the building's 31-year history that the complex had changed management.
The deal was described in a press release on July 24, 2001:
"Silverstein Properties, Inc., and Westfield America, Inc. will lease the Twin Towers and other portions of the complex in a deal worth approximately $3.2 billion – the city's richest real estate deal ever and one of the largest privatization initiatives in history."
The lease agreement applied to One, Two, Four and Five World Trade Center, and about 425,000 square feet (39,500 m²) of retail space. Silverstein put up only $14 million of his own money. Silverstein was also given the right to rebuild the structures, should they be destroyed.
Dispute with insurers
As a private developer with a 99-year lease on the World Trade Center, Silverstein insured the property. Following the September 11, 2001 attacks, he sought payment for the destruction of the towers as two incidents. The two dozen insurers held that it was one incident. If it were considered to be a single incident, the payout would be $3.55 billion and if it were two incidents, it would be $7.1 billion. Silverstein sued the insurers. In October of 2006, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit upheld a jury verdict from the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York that the attacks must be considered a single occurrence. Yet, the same court also upheld a victory in the second phase of trial which was awarded to Mr. Silverstein in which temporary insurance policies in effect when the buildings were destroyed did require that the attack be treated as two occurrences. Thus, nine insurance companies will pay double the approximately $1 billion in coverage under their policies.
On December 6, 2004, a federal jury ruled in favor of Silverstein giving him an additional $1.1 billion from nine insurers, declaring it to be two "occurrences".[11] However, in a previous trial, a different federal jury delivered a mixed verdict which highly favored insurers on April 29, 2004.
At dispute in the trial were interpretation of standard forms used in the application for property insurance and when particular insurers saw which documents.
In total, Silverstein was awarded nearly $5 billion in insurance money following the destruction of the Twin Towers [14]. He plans to use some or all of the settlement to rebuild.[15] The World Trade Center had a total of 24 insurance policies. In 2007, 6 years after the attacks, Silverstein and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey filed a $1 billion lawsuit ($250 million in unpaid claims and $750 million in damages) against Royal & Sun Alliance Group Plc and its U.S. affiliate.
Silverstein's lease with the Port Authority for the World Trade Center requires him to continue paying $102 million annually in base rent. He is applying insurance payments toward the redevelopment of the World Trade Center site.
| | 5/15/2008 8:30:37 AM | Real 9/11 by Real Engineers and Real Facts | |
scorpiomoon
Brattleboro, VT
age: 58
| (Washington, DC) Judicial Watch, the public interest law firm that investigates and prosecutes government corruption and abuse, reacted with disbelief to The Wall Street Journal report of yesterday that George H.W. Bush, the father of President Bush, works for the bin Laden family business in Saudi Arabia through the Carlyle Group, an international consulting firm. The senior Bush had met with the bin Laden family at least twice. (Other top Republicans are also associated with the Carlyle group, such as former Secretary of State James A. Baker.) The terrorist leader Osama bin Laden had supposedly been “disowned” by his family, which runs a multi-billion dollar business in Saudi Arabia and is a major investor in the senior Bush’s firm. Other reports have questioned, though, whether members of his Saudi family have truly cut off Osama bin Laden. Indeed, the Journal also reported yesterday that the FBI has subpoenaed the bin Laden family business’s bank records.
Judicial Watch earlier this year had strongly criticized President Bush’s father’s association with the Carlyle Group, pointing out in a March 5 statement that it was a “conflict of interest (which) could cause problems for America’s foreign policy in Middle East and Asia.” Judicial Watch called for the senior Bush to resign from the firm then.
“This conflict of interest has now turned into a scandal. The idea of the President’s father, an ex-president himself, doing business with a company under investigation by the FBI in the terror attacks of September 11 is horrible. President Bush should not ask, but demand, that his father pull out of the Carlyle Group,” stated Judicial Watch Chairman and General Counsel Larry Klayman. 
| | 5/15/2008 9:47:03 AM | Real 9/11 by Real Engineers and Real Facts | | 
chih
Saint Ann, MO
age: 27
| Disregarding everything else....
I have only one pertinent question, and it's worded precisely:
If a steel frame building is hit at an angle, and was weakened on one or two sides more than the rest, then is it possible for it to fall neatly into it's footprint? Each compacted floor would have given resistance, and the top ~20 floors of the building would have bent to the side. This is not what happened, though.
Okay... one more...
What are the statistical odds of three buildings falling into their footprint perfectly on the same day, without the use of controlled demolitions?
| | 5/15/2008 9:53:40 AM | Real 9/11 by Real Engineers and Real Facts | |
scorpiomoon
Brattleboro, VT
age: 58
| chih....exactly..one of the key words is....resistance....A person can walk though an open door easily, close the door then try to walk through it, unless of course you are able to walk through solid mass, there is a bit of a delay. 
| | 5/15/2008 10:49:57 AM | Real 9/11 by Real Engineers and Real Facts | |
scorpiomoon
Brattleboro, VT
age: 58
| Q: Were there clear design and engineering flaws that accounted for the collapse?
Sunder: We did not observe any flaws in terms of the structural design with regard to the collapse. We checked out the entire design, including that of the floor system, the connections of the floor systems to the internal columns, to the exterior columns. All of the elements seemed to have been properly designed. We also found no areas where the buildings were not consistent with the New York City building codes that had an impact on 9/11. We did find some areas where there were differences from the New York City building code. But those differences did not really play a role in 911.
Isn't the answer to this next question a contradiction to the previous answer?
Q: Do you believe that the NIST study of the collapse of the Twin Towers will ensure that what rises in their place will be a safer structure?
Sunder: We certainly hope that the legacy of our study is such that the recommendations are acted upon, and that future buildings will be safer—and those that actually rise on Ground Zero will be safer than what were in place on September 11th. And we are heartened by the fact that the first wave of major code changes are now making their way through the private sector building code development process, as we speak, in the country.
http://www.architectureweek.com/cgi-bin/wlk?http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/
| | 5/15/2008 11:01:08 AM | Real 9/11 by Real Engineers and Real Facts | | justme86
Waco, TX
age: 22
| Disregarding everything else....
I have only one pertinent question, and it's worded precisely:
If a steel frame building is hit at an angle, and was weakened on one or two sides more than the rest, then is it possible for it to fall neatly into it's footprint? Each compacted floor would have given resistance, and the top ~20 floors of the building would have bent to the side. This is not what happened, though.
Okay... one more...
What are the statistical odds of three buildings falling into their footprint perfectly on the same day, without the use of controlled demolitions?
If you look at the design of WTT it had a central core steel frame. In order to fall the core had to fail. So the interior had to fail before the exterior.
| | 5/15/2008 11:06:23 AM | Real 9/11 by Real Engineers and Real Facts | | justme86
Waco, TX
age: 22
| I started this thread to argue facts specifically to argue facts about the collapse.
Anything else will be frowned upon so please stay on topic. It might earn you expulsion from this thread.
| | 5/15/2008 12:24:46 PM | Real 9/11 by Real Engineers and Real Facts | | 
jewelz5
Monteagle, TN
age: 54 online now!
| There is no argument. The evidence is in front of your nose and you cannot see it. You believe what your authority figures tell you to believe, because they have tricked your mind, via the various so called 'credible' news outlets and mostly the mindsucker TV, who all have been lying to you for your entire life. That horror device courtousy of the queen, yer royal hiness. They have prepared the way for you over a long period of time, while you were busy just living your life, they have been setting you up for the kill so you would volunteer out of fear to go along with their game.
Your eyes did not fool or decieve you the very first time you saw the event in living color. What you witnessed before your very eyes, was what it was. A perfectly executed discovery channel demolition job, where 2 planes hit 2 gigantic skyscrapers and about an hour later, 2 - 110 story buildings hit the deck in their own footprints at freefall speed in about 10 seconds. There was no resistance and there was no mistake about what you saw.
Your leaders just happen to distract you with a few remote controlled airplanes so you would look up, while they fireballed those buildings for you with a holographic destruction extravaganza spectacular from hell, with temperatures 500 degrees hotter than jet fuel can burn, and detonated all the charges for the explosives and blew those buildings to kingdom come, ashes to ashes and dust to dust, in a nice neat little pile.
19 guys with box cutters, who just so happen to penetrate our multi-billion dollar defense system that day, (who incidently, could barely fly a single engine cessna airplane), (and supposedly performed impossible manuevers that experienced pilots can hardly do), in airplanes with no windows in them, (because the passengers where afraid to fly with inexperienced pilots).
For you Aunt Jammima Pancake theory batter heads, if a building pancakes that means there is resistance, freefall speed is with NO resistance. If 110 floors or even 80 floors pancaked at 1/2 second for each floor, that would still be 40 SECONDS. Those 2 buildings dropped in 10 SECONDS each.
Helloooow
[Edited 5/15/2008 12:27:56 PM]
| | 5/15/2008 12:33:29 PM | Real 9/11 by Real Engineers and Real Facts | | justme86
Waco, TX
age: 22
| There is slam dunk evidence of controlled demolition. Electron microscope analysis of steel spheres from WTC site proves thermate, which proves the collapse of twin towers was an act of deliberate arson.
Thermate is a high temperature excellerant used in arson.. those buildings were rigged for demolition...between the time Flt. 175 hit WTC2 and the time the building collapsed only 56 minutes had elapsed.
56 minutes isn't enough time to develop a fire hot enough or large enough to even have a remote chance of getting enough steel hot enough to be a factor to bring down those buildings.
Source? I think you got soo excited that you forgot that you have to prove something.
[Edited 5/15/2008 12:33:44 PM]
| | 5/15/2008 12:47:51 PM | Real 9/11 by Real Engineers and Real Facts | |
jewelz5
Monteagle, TN
age: 54 online now!
| justme, have you watched the 'loose change' video for example? You can get all the evidence you need about explosives going off in those buildings from plenty of witnesses, the police and firefighters, telling you that bombs were going off all over the place at ground level.
If you are waiting for your loving government to provide you with evidence of documented proof to convince you, you might be waiting for a very long time.
You have to be able to make up your own mind. That is the hardest thing in the world to do, I realize, especially when your whole entire life has been spent by having other people make it up for you so you will know what to think, say and do.
[Edited 5/15/2008 12:49:15 PM]
| | 5/15/2008 1:02:29 PM | Real 9/11 by Real Engineers and Real Facts | | justme86
Waco, TX
age: 22
| 19 guys with box cutters, who just so happen to penetrate our multi-billion dollar defense system that day, (who incidently, could barely fly a single engine cessna airplane), (and supposedly performed impossible manuevers that experienced pilots can hardly do), in airplanes with no windows in them, (because the passengers where afraid to fly with inexperienced pilots)
How dare you. You deny these people ever lived.
American Airlines flight 11:
Crew:
John Ogonowski
Thomas McGuinness
Barbara Arestegui
Jeffrey Collman
Sara Low
Karen Martin
Kathleen Nicosia
Betty Ong
Jean Roger
Dianne Snyder
Madeline Sweeney
Passengers
Anna Allison
David Angell
Lynn Angell
Seima Aoyama
Myra Aronson
Christine Barbuto
Carol Bouchard
Neilie Casey
Jeffrey Coombs
Tara Creamer
Thelma Cuccinello
Patrick Currivan
Andrew Currygreen
Brian Dale
David Dimeglio
Donald Ditullio
Albert Dominguez
Al Filipov
Carol Flyzik
Paul Friedman
Karleton Fyfe
Peter Gay
Linda George
Edmund Glazer
Page Hackel Farley
Peter Hashem
Robert Hayes
Edward Hennessy
John Hofer
Cora Holland
Nicholas Humber
John Jenkins
Charles Jones
Robin Kaplan
Barbara Keating
David Kovalcin
N Janis Lasden
Danny Lee
Daniel Lewin
Jeff Mladenik
Antonio Montoya
Laura Morabito
Mildred Naiman
Laurie Neira
Renee Newell
Jacqueline Norton
Robert Norton
Jane Orth
Thomas Pecorelli
Bernthia Perkins
Sonia Puopolo
David Retik
Philip Rosenweig
Richard Ross
Heath Smith
Douglas Stone
Xavier Suarez
James Trentini
Mary Trentini
Mary Wahlstrom
Kenneth Waldie
John Wenckus
Candace Williams
Christopher Zarba
United Flight 175
Crew:
VICTOR SARACINI
MICHAEL HORROCKS
ROBERT J. FANGMAN
AMY N. JARRET
AMY R. KING
KATHRYN YANCEY LABORIE
ALFRED G. MARCHAND
MICHAEL C. TARROU
ALICIA N. TITUS
Passengers:
ALONA AVRAHAM
GARNET BAILEY
MARK BAVIS
GRAHAM BERKELEY
KLAUS BOTHE
DANIEL BRANDHORST
DAVID BRANDHORST
JOHN CAHILL
CHRISTOFFER CARSTANJEN
JOHN CORCORAN
DOROTHY DEARAUJO
GLORIA DEBARRERA
LISA FROST
LYNN GOODCHILD
FRANCIS GROGAN
CARL HAMMOND
GERALD HARDACRE
ERIC HARTONO
JAMES HAYDEN
ROBERTA JALBERT
RALPH KERSHAW
HEINRICH KIMMIG
BRIAN KINNEY
MACLOVIA LOPEZ
MARIANNE MACFARLANE
JULIANA MCCOURT
RUTH MCCOURT
WOLFGANG MENZEL
SHAWN NASSANEY
MARIE PAPPALARDO
PATRICK QUIGLEY
JESUS SANCHEZ
KATHLEEN SHEARER
ROBERT SHEARER
JANE SIMPKIN
BRIAN SWEENEY
TIM WARD
WILLIAM WEEMS
American Airlines Flight 77
CREW:
Charles Burlingame
David Charlebois
Michele Heidenberger
Jennifer Lewis
Kenneth Lewis
Renee May
PASSENGERS:
Paul Ambrose
Yeneneh Betru
MJ Booth
Bernard Brown
Suzanne Calley
William E. Caswell
Sarah Clark
Zandra Cooper
Asia Cottom
James Debeuneure
Rodney D*ckens
Eddie Dillard
Charles Droz
Barbara G. Edwards
Charles S. Falkenberg
Dana Falkenberg
Zoe Falkenberg
James Joe Ferguson
Darlene ``Dee'' Flagg
Wilson ``Bud'' Flagg
Richard P. Gabriel Sr.
Ian Gray
Stanley Hall
Bryan Jack
Steven D. ``Jake'' Jacoby
Ann Judge
Chandler Keller
Yvonne Kennedy
Norma Khan
Karen A. Kincaid
Dong Lee
Dora Menchaca
Christopher Newton
Barbara Olson
Ruben Ornedo
Robert Penniger
Robert R. Ploger III
Lisa J. Raines
Todd Reuben
John Sammartino
Yang Shuyin
Diane Simmons
George Simmons
Mari-Rae Sopper
Robert Speisman
Norma Lang Steuerle
Hilda Taylor
Leonard Taylor
Sandra Teague
Leslie A. Whittington
John Yamnicky
Vicki Yancey
Zheng Yuguang
United Airlines Flight 93
CREW:
Lorraine Bay, Hightstown
Sandra Bradshaw
Jason Dahl
Wanda Green
LeRoy Homer
CeeCee Lyles
Deborah Welsh
PASSENGERS:
Christian Adams
Todd Beamer
Alan Beaven
Mark Bingham
Deora Bodley
Marion Britton
Thomas E. Burnett Jr.
William Cashman
Georgine Rose Corrigan
Joseph Deluca
Patrick Driscoll
Edward Felt
Colleen Fraser
Andrew Garcia
Jeremy Glick
Kristin Gould
Lauren Grandcolas
Donald F. Greene
Linda Gronlund
Richard Guadagno
Toshiya Kuge
Hilda Marcin
Waleska Martinez
Nicole Miller
Louis J. Nacke
Mark Rothenberg
Christine Snyder
John Talignani
Honor Wainio
| | 5/15/2008 1:21:38 PM | Real 9/11 by Real Engineers and Real Facts | | 
tedric
Anchor Point, AK
age: 67
| Justme ~ Thanks for visual.
Jewelz will probably tell us that those empty portals in the fuselage section in the foreground aren't windows, but more evidence of planted explosives...
I just visited his profile page (now I need a shower) and pulled an excerpt from it that explains his lunatic rantings... His words follow (I emboldened words for emphasis).
"The artwork are samples of sacred geometry that I discovered from the reflection of the violet light from gold. It is healing light from the 5th dimension. if you can believe it, it's magic, it will make you feel good and heal you just by looking at it."
Scorpiomoon's page will be another interesting stop I'm sure, but I need to recuperate from contact with Jewelz's page first.
| | 5/15/2008 1:45:14 PM | Real 9/11 by Real Engineers and Real Facts | |
scorpiomoon
Brattleboro, VT
age: 58
| Tedric...Stop at my profile....read my posts....come visit me if you want. I am a mother of three grandmother of three. My dad was a WW2 Navy vet on DES Gendreau 639. I had friends that served in Korea, Nam, and a young cousin killed in Iraq. I am practical, honest, sincere, and I love my home and where I live. I am not anti-American. I am anti-Hate. I remember JFK's asassination. Fact is I dont' beleive our government, and the older I get the more sceptical I am. WE ARE FED LIES......in my opinion.
Justme...sorry to go off topic, you can block me if you want. I had a long thread about this subject so, it's ok if you do. There are JUST SO MANY UNANSWERED QUESTIONS. It is hard for me to just pretend they don't exist. I don't jump on every conspiracy theory..if I did I wouldn't ever rest. But it is the fact that SO many have died that it is hard not to QUESTION WHY? HOW? 
Just one more thing, the picture above looks a little altered to me. The pristine golden ruins in back of him, don't look like they went through a devastating collapse. And why is he alone? Where are all the other workers? Just him and the camera guy? Stange, but JMO.
[Edited 5/15/2008 3:03:33 PM]
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