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7/19/2016 2:42:15 AMAmerica is getting Socialist 
stregaleonora
Over 7,500 Posts!! (7,674)
Atlanta, GA
42, joined Jun. 2014


Alinsky was a Communist philosopher which wrote a lot about how to make America Communist (look him up).
Hillary Clinton was so infatuated with him that she made her thesis about him and his work.
Obama was an Alinsky admirer as well and if you check here the RULES OF ALINSKY to make America communist, you'll see that Obama applied all of them (or the ones he could...and he's still trying for the others).
The "useful idiots" is the way Stalin first, and Alinsky second called the population who followed their political communist leaders without to realize they were signing their own comdemnation to slavery...
Sounds familiar??



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7/19/2016 6:01:00 AMAmerica is getting Socialist 

testsignup
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (11,152)
Springfield, VA
64, joined Sep. 2009


Two problems:

1. this is as usual, written by someone who started from THE PRESENT, and then rewrote "predictions" from THE PAST, to make it appear that the "predictions" were accurate. It is LITERALLY the oldest trick in The Book.

2. the characterizations are FALSE in a point by point way anyway. Gun control laws are DECLINING. Welfare is DECLINING. Religion has ALWAYS been prevented from controlling our political lives, going back to the writing of the Constitution and before. And so on.

So calm down.

Or, if you like, you can get at least equally paranoid that we are about to be pushed into a right-wing dictatorship, since the exact same list of crap has been used to make THAT claim as well.

And more than that, the number one trick that has always been played by those who DO want to start a right-wing dictatorship, has been to get people so scared that a LEFT wing thing is about to be launched, that they will run to the protection of the Right, to escape it.

7/19/2016 8:04:26 AMAmerica is getting Socialist 

jinxthejuvy11
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,578)
Philadelphia, PA
51, joined Aug. 2014


Nice thread streg.. I like this one!

7/19/2016 8:16:30 AMAmerica is getting Socialist 

fearless8841
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (14,114)
North Pole, AK
44, joined Jan. 2012


Quote from testsignup:
Two problems:

1. this is as usual, written by someone who started from THE PRESENT, and then rewrote "predictions" from THE PAST, to make it appear that the "predictions" were accurate. It is LITERALLY the oldest trick in The Book.

2. the characterizations are FALSE in a point by point way anyway. Gun control laws are DECLINING. Welfare is DECLINING. Religion has ALWAYS been prevented from controlling our political lives, going back to the writing of the Constitution and before. And so on.

So calm down.

Or, if you like, you can get at least equally paranoid that we are about to be pushed into a right-wing dictatorship, since the exact same list of crap has been used to make THAT claim as well.

And more than that, the number one trick that has always been played by those who DO want to start a right-wing dictatorship, has been to get people so scared that a LEFT wing thing is about to be launched, that they will run to the protection of the Right, to escape it.



Normalcy Bias in action ^

7/19/2016 8:36:28 AMAmerica is getting Socialist 

mr_bad_robot
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (19,196)
Cincinnati, OH
42, joined Jul. 2014


Quote from testsignup:
Two problems:

1. this is as usual, written by someone who started from THE PRESENT, and then rewrote "predictions" from THE PAST, to make it appear that the "predictions" were accurate. It is LITERALLY the oldest trick in The Book.

2. the characterizations are FALSE in a point by point way anyway. Gun control laws are DECLINING. Welfare is DECLINING. Religion has ALWAYS been prevented from controlling our political lives, going back to the writing of the Constitution and before. And so on.

So calm down.

Or, if you like, you can get at least equally paranoid that we are about to be pushed into a right-wing dictatorship, since the exact same list of crap has been used to make THAT claim as well.

And more than that, the number one trick that has always been played by those who DO want to start a right-wing dictatorship, has been to get people so scared that a LEFT wing thing is about to be launched, that they will run to the protection of the Right, to escape it.


Looks to me they have compared what Alinsky wrote to what is happening today. I don't see any predictions I see instructions.

7/19/2016 10:09:21 AMAmerica is getting Socialist 

rem762700
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,585)
Martinsburg, WV
51, joined Apr. 2009


It would be much easier for the Right to present Alinsky as the villain he is if the clipping shown was true.

I can see how the author might have concluded these were his thoughts but in the end he took great liberty with what Alinsky wrote in his book. Unfortunately you won't find any of this there. Whether or not these were his thoughts may never be known. I can see how the author might have concluded these were his thoughts but in the end Alinsky said none of these things directly.

7/19/2016 12:24:09 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 
muldoon1959
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (24,733)
Vallejo, CA
58, joined Feb. 2008


Keep the government out of my medicare

7/19/2016 12:44:15 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 
condor_0000
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (21,503)
Tampa, FL
60, joined Feb. 2013


So, I guess this is what "commie America" looks like. We have a surging capitalist stock market where American capitalists are today richer, fatter and happier than they have ever been.

You Republicans might want to take note in particular of how great the surge in the capitalist markets was during the Clinton presidency and now the Obama presidency. Those "f**king commies" Bill Clinton and Barack Obama have actually been the greatest capitalist presidents in the history of America. Why is it that Republicans cannot recognize truly-great, capitalist presidents from "evil socialists?"



7/19/2016 12:58:06 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 
stregaleonora
Over 7,500 Posts!! (7,674)
Atlanta, GA
42, joined Jun. 2014


Quote from testsignup:
Two problems:

1. this is as usual, written by someone who started from THE PRESENT, and then rewrote "predictions" from THE PAST, to make it appear that the "predictions" were accurate. It is LITERALLY the oldest trick in The Book.

Are you kidding?
This can be said about any theory ever formulated. No only the political literature but also the theories of many disciplines such as sociology, psychology, and even economy base their analysis on models created in the past by some scholar and then applied to real situations later on...
So what do you suggest, that we abolish all economic and political models because created in the past?
They are not necessarily biased by the way.


Quote from testsignup:
Two problems:
2. the characterizations are FALSE in a point by point way anyway. Gun control laws are DECLINING. Welfare is DECLINING. Religion has ALWAYS been prevented from controlling our political lives, going back to the writing of the Constitution and before. And so on.

Control guns declining? Control guns laws are just difficult to introduce because the constitution makes it this way.
Anyway Obama wrote dozens of executive orders in order to push it, supported by his darling Loretta Lynch and all the group of socialists with Hillary and company.
Welfare declining? I honestly never heard about that, maybe we are seriously running out of money?

For what it corcern the national debt, Obama is a genius in making it grows esponentially. And what about the incredible tratee with China wich just pushes us down and down in debt while China get our dollars? That tratee was signed by Clinton by the way. The irony!

Quote from testsignup:
Or, if you like, you can get at least equally paranoid that we are about to be pushed into a right-wing dictatorship, since the exact same list of crap has been used to make THAT claim as well.


If becaming a socialist country you call it a trick...
It happened in many countries, now bankrupted.
Starting with Italy.

7/19/2016 1:16:17 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 
condor_0000
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (21,503)
Tampa, FL
60, joined Feb. 2013


Quote from stregaleonora:
If becaming a socialist country you call it a trick...
It happened in many countries, now bankrupted.
Starting with Italy.


If America becomes bankrupted, I think we are going to know where the money went. America's richest capitalists have it all. Damned socialism!

Dow Jones Industrial Average


7/19/2016 1:20:14 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 
stregaleonora
Over 7,500 Posts!! (7,674)
Atlanta, GA
42, joined Jun. 2014


Quote from condor_0000:
So, I guess this is what "commie America" looks like. We have a surging capitalist stock market where American capitalists are today richer, fatter and happier than they have ever been.

You Republicans might want to take note in particular of how great the surge in the capitalist markets was during the Clinton presidency and now the Obama presidency. Those "f**king commies" Bill Clinton and Barack Obama have actually been the greatest capitalist presidents in the history of America. Why is it that Republicans cannot recognize truly-great, capitalist presidents from "evil socialists?"


Obama is creating a very small class of super-rich and an overwelming minority of really poor. An oligarchy of a few wich has in their hands all the money.
Obamacare is a clear example of tactic to shut down the middle class by making medical insurance unaffordable.

To eliminate the middle class is the first step in order to create a Communist society.

7/19/2016 1:28:34 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 
stregaleonora
Over 7,500 Posts!! (7,674)
Atlanta, GA
42, joined Jun. 2014


Quote from condor_0000:
If America becomes bankrupted, I think we are going to know where the money went. America's richest capitalists have it all. Damned socialism!


Kondor, in despite of your sarcasm we agree this time:

The money have gone in the hands of few. An oligarchy really different that the rich capitalistic America that we all used to know wich a strong and large middle class.

All the money in the hands of few and the rest all poor. Like Obama wanted. The perfect structure of a Communist country where people are too weak and poor to protest and are easy to manipulate.

Loretta Lynch even tried to limit the power of speech! Yeah let's start to throw in jail anyone who disagree with her and Obama.
The perfect socialistic dictatorship like in Russia before the Perestroika!

7/19/2016 1:55:44 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 

lobo_corazon
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (38,711)
Orleans, ON
48, joined May. 2008


Quote from stregaleonora:
Kondor, in despite of your sarcasm we agree this time:

The money have gone in the hands of few. An oligarchy really different that the rich capitalistic America that we all used to know wich a strong and large middle class.

You have a strange and catastrophic inversion in your terminology.

- A "strong and large middle class" is the definition of Socialism, where the people who do the work reap the benefits of that work.

- "Oligarchy", "the money in the hands of few" is textbook Capitalism. Capitalism by design rewards wealth with more wealth. The necessary result of that is the wealthy getting richer, while the non-wealthy 99% struggle (since the only source of capital is the labour of productive workers, so at the end of the day an idle elite's only source of further wealth is to take it from the people who worked for it.)

- It takes a special kind of delusion to imagine that the stock market enriching the Capitalist elites is Socialism. Where to even start unravelling that? It's just lunacy.

7/19/2016 2:01:52 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 

Jack__daniels
Over 2,000 Posts (2,641)
Jacksonville, FL
60, joined Oct. 2015


Quote from condor_0000:
So, I guess this is what "commie America" looks like. We have a surging capitalist stock market where American capitalists are today richer, fatter and happier than they have ever been.

You Republicans might want to take note in particular of how great the surge in the capitalist markets was during the Clinton presidency and now the Obama presidency. Those "f**king commies" Bill Clinton and Barack Obama have actually been the greatest capitalist presidents in the history of America. Why is it that Republicans cannot recognize truly-great, capitalist presidents from "evil socialists?"





7/19/2016 7:59:13 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 

shylywilling
Over 2,000 Posts (2,686)
Medford, OR
56, joined Jan. 2008


I have been given unto a parable to share.

We have 20 racers that split into two separate groups for ten-lap timed qualifying races. The ten in group-A beat and bang their way all the way to the checker flag and some may not even make it while even the winner has been damaged and progress and performance slowed. Group-B runs nose to tail like a freight train right to and beyond the checker. Not even a scratch at the finish on any of the ten competitors in group-B. The winner of Group A has a slower qualifying time/speed then even the last place competitor in the unblemished cooperatively aerodynamically advantaged group B.

Group-A displayed Laissez faire capitalism and raced only for personal victory at all cost even at a personal risk of sustained damage in effort to beat and or eliminate competitors. Group-B displayed the democratic Christian communist principle. One for all and all for one. The entire group-B outperformed even the winner of group-A.

The entire group of capitalists do not qualify in the top ten performers. All ten democratic communists survive and thrive.

"Ask not what your country,(fellow man), can do for you, but rather ask, what you can do for your country, (fellow man)". JFK.(me)

This is not the statement of a capitalist. This is the statement of a husband, a father, a partner, a leader, a patriot, a democratic citizen, a communist.

7/19/2016 8:08:32 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 
chairman_drth
Over 2,000 Posts (2,546)
Toronto, ON
47, joined Dec. 2015


Quote from shylywilling:
I have been given unto a parable to share.

We have 20 racers that split into two separate groups for ten-lap timed qualifying races. The ten in group-A beat and bang their way all the way to the checker flag and some may not even make it while even the winner has been damaged and progress and performance slowed. Group-B runs nose to tail like a freight train right to and beyond the checker. Not even a scratch at the finish on any of the ten competitors in group-B. The winner of Group A has a slower qualifying time/speed then even the last place competitor in the unblemished cooperatively aerodynamically advantaged group B.

Group-A displayed Laissez faire capitalism and raced only for personal victory at all cost even at a personal risk of sustained damage in effort to beat and or eliminate competitors. Group-B displayed the democratic Christian communist principle. One for all and all for one. The entire group-B outperformed even the winner of group-A.

The entire group of capitalists do not qualify in the top ten performers. All ten democratic communists survive and thrive.

"Ask not what your country,(fellow man), can do for you, but rather ask, what you can do for your country, (fellow man)". JFK.(me)

This is not the statement of a capitalist. This is the statement of a husband, a father, a partner, a leader, a patriot, a democratic citizen, a communist.


what a stupid fable, why would any of them race?
Group A the laissez faire capitalism would race for what reason? personal victory? , that is the dumbest thing Ive read.

Group B, the democratic christian communist principle? why are they even racing? and how does racing benefit the community?

Pick a more sensible fable, this one is running really thin.

7/19/2016 8:56:14 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 

shylywilling
Over 2,000 Posts (2,686)
Medford, OR
56, joined Jan. 2008


The story is a parable of civilization. The participants form the groups for the same reason man forms communities, societies, civilization. The diverse universe demands the harmonic cooperation of equally diverse entities for survival.

Private property capitalism is Darwinism. Survival of the fittest does not exclude a diminished outcome nor extinction. In fact, the battle for superiority, survival, when pitted against a potential partner, virtually assures a weakened diminished capacity for survival.

7/19/2016 9:15:36 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 
chairman_drth
Over 2,000 Posts (2,546)
Toronto, ON
47, joined Dec. 2015


Quote from shylywilling:
The story is a parable of civilization. The participants form the groups for the same reason man forms communities, societies, civilization. The diverse universe demands the harmonic cooperation of equally diverse entities for survival.

Private property capitalism is Darwinism. Survival of the fittest does not exclude a diminished outcome nor extinction. In fact, the battle for superiority, survival, when pitted against a potential partner, virtually assures a weakened diminished capacity for survival.
you do know that parables are not real right?

private property capitalism? Ive never heard that term or did you make that up? first thing sport is perhaps do a little homework to understand what capitalism actually is? survival of the fittest??? please.

7/19/2016 10:09:12 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 
funwithmusic
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (18,702)
Chapel Hill, NC
62, joined Feb. 2007


Quote from stregaleonora:
Kondor, in despite of your sarcasm we agree this time:

The money have gone in the hands of few. An oligarchy really different that the rich capitalistic America that we all used to know wich a strong and large middle class.

All the money in the hands of few and the rest all poor. Like Obama wanted. The perfect structure of a Communist country where people are too weak and poor to protest and are easy to manipulate.

Loretta Lynch even tried to limit the power of speech! Yeah let's start to throw in jail anyone who disagree with her and Obama.
The perfect socialistic dictatorship like in Russia before the Perestroika!



WATCH DR ZHIVAGO..


see what they have in store for us...if they win..

7/19/2016 10:53:11 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 

shylywilling
Over 2,000 Posts (2,686)
Medford, OR
56, joined Jan. 2008


We have no known examples of a pure communist society of significance since the early days of the "garden of Eden" described for us in scripture.

The Russia you speak of was and is, like all other significant societies since Eden, practicing a form of private property capitalism to manage and distribute resources.

Those in positions of authority have hoarded resources for personal advantage which by all definitions is capitalists capitalizing on the disadvantaged. Not communism. Not democracy. And not true Christianity. All three of which are societies made up of citizens of equal value/voice.

7/19/2016 11:42:23 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 

lobo_corazon
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (38,711)
Orleans, ON
48, joined May. 2008


Quote from chairman_drth:
what a stupid fable, why would any of them race?
Group A the laissez faire capitalism would race for what reason? personal victory? , that is the dumbest thing Ive read.

Group B, the democratic christian communist principle? why are they even racing? and how does racing benefit the community?

Pick a more sensible fable, this one is running really thin.

I guess you don't pay much attention to sports. If you ever watched the Tour de France, or various cycling (or distance running) events at the Olympics, you'd get it.

7/20/2016 2:46:34 AMAmerica is getting Socialist 
stregaleonora
Over 7,500 Posts!! (7,674)
Atlanta, GA
42, joined Jun. 2014


Quote from lobo_corazon:
You have a strange and catastrophic inversion in your terminology.

- A "strong and large middle class" is the definition of Socialism, where the people who do the work reap the benefits of that work.


A rich middle class is Socialism???
Maybe you are confusing the middle class with the working class?

Wow!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_class

Socialism wants all the society to be poor and the few burocrats which support socialism got the power (don't you think that the socialist politicians live in poverty do you??)

A large and strong middle class is caracteristic of an advanced, strong, mostly capitalistic society. It was the US in the 80's.

The British industrial revolution started capitalism. And who do you think started the capitalistic industrial revolution?
No the nobilty and no the paesans! Right! It was the emergent class of the bourgeoisie (French for middle class).

Jeez. Get a book.

7/20/2016 9:11:21 AMAmerica is getting Socialist 

lobo_corazon
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (38,711)
Orleans, ON
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Wrong on all counts, Streg.

7/20/2016 9:15:39 AMAmerica is getting Socialist 

progrocknic
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Mount Arlington, NJ
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Quote from lobo_corazon:
Wrong on all counts, Streg.


Not surprised. People just call what they don't like socialism. It's the new communism.

7/20/2016 9:24:58 AMAmerica is getting Socialist 

lobo_corazon
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (38,711)
Orleans, ON
48, joined May. 2008


Predictable edit timer...

I appreciate the irony of you telling someone else to educate themselves about these terms though!

You need to be intellectually honest enough to start thinking for yourself, instead of taking the word of proven liars like Rush Limbaugh as your "research".

Socialism is not welfare. It is not government spending. It is not everyone getting the same wage regardless of their contribution so that there is no incentive to work. It is not Stalinism.
These are lies your right-wing handlers told you. And they are generally so transparent, independent thinkers see right through them.

Socialism is the people who do the work being in control of the means of their own production. It may be best summed up by "to each according to their deeds". (i.e. a brain surgeon performs great deeds, and deserves a nice income for them... While an idle heir contributes nothing, and deserves no income for that.)

Simple concept really. Complicated to implement? Probably... But certainly far less complicated than this incredible rats nest of Capitalism we've built up with the Fed directing the Treasury to issue new money to the big banks so they can loan to the smaller banks so they can loan to the middle/working-class family who just want to buy a house. And then there's the stock market...Naked shorts, put-call spreads, high-frequency trading using robots scanning Twitter for keywords, arbitrage, contango, commodity speculation, derivatives...

Under Capitalism, people receive income based on how good they are at playing the stock market casino, whose rules are intentionally far more complicated than anyone who does productive work for a living could ever find time to learn. Under Socialism their income would depend on how good a job they do at their work.

The latter makes a lot more sense to me!

7/20/2016 9:27:02 AMAmerica is getting Socialist 

naprinciple
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (21,314)
West Plains, MO
48, joined Feb. 2014


America has socialized education, roads, military, police, fire, etc. Our whole infrastructure is funded and directed by socialized politicians, but somehow this isn't Socialism

7/20/2016 9:37:00 AMAmerica is getting Socialist 

mr_bad_robot
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Cincinnati, OH
42, joined Jul. 2014


Socialism depends on a very low unemployment rate. When the balance is shifted Socialism starts to fail. In other words Socialism must have a very large tax base to afford the social programs.

It's like what we are seeing with Social Security. We have an aging population, an excessive amount of people on disability, and more people working jobs that pay much less than in the past. The revenue is no longer there like it once was.

7/20/2016 10:03:50 AMAmerica is getting Socialist 
mustangwriter
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (24,547)
Boerne, TX
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7/20/2016 11:44:18 AMAmerica is getting Socialist 

progrocknic
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (20,462)
Mount Arlington, NJ
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Quote from mustangwriter:



I'm sure that has nothing to do with North Korea being a dictatorship.

7/20/2016 11:53:36 AMAmerica is getting Socialist 

lobo_corazon
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (38,711)
Orleans, ON
48, joined May. 2008


...And dictatorship being the opposite of Socialism.

But hey, it makes a great talking point!

Mustangwriter, perhaps you would like to explain where you see socialism (Def'n: The productive workers being in control of the means of production) in North Korea?

7/20/2016 11:57:30 AMAmerica is getting Socialist 

lobo_corazon
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (38,711)
Orleans, ON
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Quote from naprinciple:
America has socialized education, roads, military, police, fire, etc. Our whole infrastructure is funded and directed by socialized politicians, but somehow this isn't Socialism

Government does not equal the productive workers in control of the means of production (Socialism).

The things you list have been in place throughout capitalism, since there was civilization. Are you arguing that civilization is socialism?

Civilization is social. Socialism is about making it work for the people who make that society run, rather than mainly the wealthy.

7/20/2016 12:06:26 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 
the_israelite
Over 4,000 Posts! (5,891)
Rio de JaneiroRio de Janeiro
Brazil
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lobo_corazon seems to have plenty of sense.

7/20/2016 12:10:55 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 

mr_bad_robot
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (19,196)
Cincinnati, OH
42, joined Jul. 2014


For someone too lazy to work Socialism makes a lot of sense.

7/20/2016 12:35:26 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 
the_israelite
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Socialism is about making it work for the people who make that society run, rather than mainly the wealthy.

7/20/2016 12:50:48 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 

mr_bad_robot
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (19,196)
Cincinnati, OH
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Quote from the_israelite:
Socialism is about making it work for the people who make that society run, rather than mainly the wealthy.


No not even close. Look at every Socialist Country today. They still have their top 1%.

7/20/2016 1:03:41 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 

naprinciple
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (21,314)
West Plains, MO
48, joined Feb. 2014


Quote from the_israelite:
lobo_corazon seems to have plenty of sense.




Does his sense have anything to do with his sharing your anti-capitalist views?



[Edited 7/20/2016 1:04:34 PM ]

7/20/2016 1:20:52 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 

mr_bad_robot
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (19,196)
Cincinnati, OH
42, joined Jul. 2014


Venezuela's collapse into disarray is of a scale unseen in the Western Hemisphere.

Even the poor working stiffs that managed to put some money aside are traveling outside of the country just to purchase staple goods. Some have been reported as eating out of trash.

Over half of the Police cars are idle, no gas. Police are begging for simple items such as pens/pencils and paper products.

But guess what? Their elite class is still living high on the hog.

7/20/2016 1:41:26 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 

ludlowlowell
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Panama City, FL
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Did you guys know that Hillary's mentor Saul Alinsky was a member of the Man-Boy Love Association?

7/20/2016 2:33:00 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 
the_israelite
Over 4,000 Posts! (5,891)
Rio de JaneiroRio de Janeiro
Brazil
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There is a common myth that America is the home of free markets and our way of life was built on the free market model for its very existence – as if it was written into the U.S. Constitution.

The health of “free market” capitalism may be the biggest fairy tale in the World today.

7/20/2016 2:45:31 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 
cupocheer
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (265,752)
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010


"Donald (Trump) slept with a book of Hitler quotes" "he had stopped sleeping with me" [Ivana Trump, September 1990,Vanity Fair]

7/20/2016 4:35:29 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 

mr_bad_robot
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (19,196)
Cincinnati, OH
42, joined Jul. 2014


Quote from the_israelite:
There is a common myth that America is the home of free markets and our way of life was built on the free market model for its very existence – as if it was written into the U.S. Constitution.

The health of “free market” capitalism may be the biggest fairy tale in the World today.


Never ever heard of that common myth. In fact the term free market along with supply-side economics is used to describe a political or ideological viewpoint on policy and is not a field within economics.

In simple terms, a free market is a summary term for an array of exchanges that take place in society. Each exchange is a voluntary agreement between two parties who trade in the form of goods and services. In reality, this is the extent to which a free market exists since there will always be government intervention in the form of taxes, price controls and restrictions that prevent new competitors from entering a market.

Anyone that goes into business believing in your myth is doomed to fail.

7/20/2016 4:36:52 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 

mr_bad_robot
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (19,196)
Cincinnati, OH
42, joined Jul. 2014


Quote from cupocheer:
"Donald (Trump) slept with a book of Hitler quotes" "he had stopped sleeping with me" [Ivana Trump, September 1990,Vanity Fair]


I have read his quotes myself along with every book written about Hitler. It's good to know information.

7/20/2016 5:39:56 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 

lobo_corazon
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Orleans, ON
48, joined May. 2008


Quote from ludlowlowell:
Did you guys know that Hillary's mentor Saul Alinsky was a member of the Man-Boy Love Association?

Did you know that Trump's mentor Adolph Hitler was directly responsible for the death of tens of millions of men, women and children?

7/20/2016 5:44:15 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 
cupocheer
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (265,752)
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010


Quote from mr_bad_robot:
Venezuela's collapse into disarray is of a scale unseen in the Western Hemisphere.

Even the poor working stiffs that managed to put some money aside are traveling outside of the country just to purchase staple goods. Some have been reported as eating out of trash.

Over half of the Police cars are idle, no gas. Police are begging for simple items such as pens/pencils and paper products.

But guess what? Their elite class is still living high on the hog.


Prado del Este

7/20/2016 5:48:44 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 
muldoon1959
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (24,733)
Vallejo, CA
58, joined Feb. 2008


Quote from ludlowlowell:
Did you guys know that Hillary's mentor Saul Alinsky was a member of the Man-Boy Love Association?




7/20/2016 9:53:11 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 
stregaleonora
Over 7,500 Posts!! (7,674)
Atlanta, GA
42, joined Jun. 2014


Quote from lobo_corazon:
Government does not equal the productive workers in control of the means of production (Socialism).

The things you list have been in place throughout capitalism, since there was civilization. Are you arguing that civilization is socialism?

Civilization is social. Socialism is about making it work for the people who make that society run, rather than mainly the wealthy.



So let me set things straight here...

You are calling an advanced society with a large and rich middle class "Socialism"?

Did you read my previous post?

I posted a link but I could post 100 about it. Also google the classic economists such as Ricardo and Smith.
Historically Capitalism has been created by the bourgeoisie, that was the Middle Class. Do you understand?
Socialism is defined by the fact that all the means of productions are iwned by the government...

So where does this theory of yours that calls "Socialism" something that is not come from?
Can you name some articles or author about that?
Anything other that your imagination?

7/20/2016 9:59:43 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 
stregaleonora
Over 7,500 Posts!! (7,674)
Atlanta, GA
42, joined Jun. 2014


Quote from lobo_corazon:
Did you know that Trump's mentor Adolph Hitler was directly responsible for the death of tens of millions of men, women and children?


And do you know that the history is written by the winners and that Jews have controlled the means of communication since EVER?

Hitler never killed all those jews, it was mostly propaganda. Stalin killed much more people than Hitler, but you leftists seem to be fine with that?

You seems to have a lot of double standards and a passion for "constructing" things based more on immagination than facts.

7/20/2016 10:53:27 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 

lobo_corazon
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (38,711)
Orleans, ON
48, joined May. 2008


Quote from stregaleonora:
I posted a link but I could post 100 about it. Also google the classic economists such as Ricardo and Smith.
Historically Capitalism has been created by the bourgeoisie, that was the Middle Class. Do you understand?

I do have to enjoy the irony of someone like you trying to talk down to me.


Socialism is defined by the fact that all the means of productions are iwned by the government...

lol no. Completely wrong. Socialism is defined by the means of production being controlled by the working class. It is supposed to have a very small government, staffed by volunteers who have short terms to prevent entrenched corruption (bought-and-paid for bureaucrats handing out favours becomes a very expensive strategy when the bureaucrat you need keeps getting rotated out.)

So where does this theory of yours that calls "Socialism" something that is not come from?
Can you name some articles or author about that?
Anything other that your imagination?

Um... Marx maybe? That would be the obvious place to start.

I know, I know, Rush Limbaugh's definition is just so compelling though right? I mean, he's really loud, so it must be true!


7/20/2016 10:56:30 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 

lobo_corazon
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (38,711)
Orleans, ON
48, joined May. 2008


Quote from stregaleonora:
And do you know that the history is written by the winners and that Jews have controlled the means of communication since EVER?

Hitler never killed all those jews, it was mostly propaganda. Stalin killed much more people than Hitler, but you leftists seem to be fine with that?

You seems to have a lot of double standards and a passion for "constructing" things based more on immagination than facts.

lol right. The holocaust never happened, eh?

Crawl back under your rock, neo-Nazi filth.

I am kindof curious where on earth you could have gotten the impression that "leftists" ever supported Stalin's purges? Particularly when he was killing off all the Socialists?

Limbaugh never shared that little fact with you, eh?


7/21/2016 12:30:15 AMAmerica is getting Socialist 

shylywilling
Over 2,000 Posts (2,686)
Medford, OR
56, joined Jan. 2008


Quote from chairman_drth:
you do know that parables are not real right?

private property capitalism? Ive never heard that term or did you make that up? first thing sport is perhaps do a little homework to understand what capitalism actually is? survival of the fittest??? please.


It appears you have asked an astutely pertinent question drth. LORD God imparted it to us by way of the oldest and wisest text book available. Scripture. In it we are also informed that we evolve but that misunderstanding is for another post.

Before I show you I want to clarify something. Socialism is a term for a private property system of resource management. It is capitalism. Not communism. Not democracy. Not Christianity, all three of which are civil societal structures of an equal value/voice for each and every citizen, all own an equal share,(public property}. Capitalism is not civil. It is the exact opposite paradigm of civility.

The only important defining difference between civilization and uncivilization/anarchy Darwinism is that a civilization is a collective interest, not private individual interests. A public's property. In the early days of the garden of Eden it was unanimously believed that the LORD God inspired/created and provided all. Therefor no one thought to take advantage of another as this would be taking from self/LORD God. All were harmonious and lived long and prosperous without private property or private interests until mankind decided to own for self/offspring (serpent) an advantage over another. And mankind has been struggling with the violent inspirations of inequality and has not known our true potential harmonious prosperity ever since.


(Gen 2:9) And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.


Note the word "midst" signifies community's possession, ie..public property. All may enjoy the beauty and aroma, (benefits of fruit provided), equally.

(Gen 2:17) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Obviously if one eats the fruit one has taken private individual possession/ownership for private individual advantage at the expense of all other's benefit, ie..aroma and beauty. Public property is turned into private advantage/leverage. Equality and civility are turned into a darwinistic competition for advantage/survival of the fittest.

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.



Touching and eating the forbidden fruit is creating/owning private property. The original sin for a damn good reason. To do so inevitably leads us to a division of slaves and masters. Currently the planet is experiencing the most extreme inequality in which just one percent has enslaved ninety nine percent. Whom can deny the increasing violence, also. forwarned for us further into scriptures.

7/21/2016 1:11:21 AMAmerica is getting Socialist 
the_israelite
Over 4,000 Posts! (5,891)
Rio de JaneiroRio de Janeiro
Brazil
36, joined Apr. 2016


Quote from stregaleonora:
And do you know that the history is written by the winners and that Jews have controlled the means of communication since EVER?


So do you now admit that the Israelites and ancient Egyptians were a black people but that the so-called winners of history ("white" people) whited that out? If not, how can you not be a hypocrite based on your previous statement?

7/21/2016 2:11:07 AMAmerica is getting Socialist 
mustangwriter
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (24,547)
Boerne, TX
56, joined Nov. 2009


Quote from lobo_corazon:
...And dictatorship being the opposite of Socialism.

But hey, it makes a great talking point!

Mustangwriter, perhaps you would like to explain where you see socialism (Def'n: The productive workers being in control of the means of production) in North Korea?



Dictatorship yes. Socialist yes. The government of North Korea is called:

The Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea.

Merriam-Webster:

Full Definition of socialism

1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

2a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property

2b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

7/21/2016 2:21:41 AMAmerica is getting Socialist 
stregaleonora
Over 7,500 Posts!! (7,674)
Atlanta, GA
42, joined Jun. 2014


Lobocorazon you are an idiot.
By definition does not exist the private property in socialism, especially if you refer to an extremist like Marx.

I guess did you read "The Capital"?
The means of production do not belong to the people, they are controlled through a complicate burocratic system by the government; and the government does it (supposely) for the good of the people.
In Socialism there is not Private Property. The private property does not exist. By definition.

So if the Private Property does not exist?
How can exist the middle class?
The middle class owns private property! By definition as well.

Can you see that the middle class cannot have anything to do with socialism?
Because the bourgeoisie owns private property and that is uncompatible with socialism.


I think you are confusing the middle class with the working class.

Carl Marx talks about working class. The bourgeoisie is the enemy for Marx.

I honestly doubt that you ever read Marx.

7/21/2016 2:39:33 AMAmerica is getting Socialist 
stregaleonora
Over 7,500 Posts!! (7,674)
Atlanta, GA
42, joined Jun. 2014


You know what you are doing Lobocorazzon?
(probably without being aware of that)

You are behaving like those bullshitters who paint Islam like "a religion of peace" when anyone who read the Koran and the Sirah and Sunna knows that this is not true.

You are trying to paint Socialism like something that does not stink.
When everyone who read any decent economic text about it knows that that is not true.

Actually there are a few parallelisms between Islam and Socialism:
Both lie. Both take away the freedom from the people. And both are totalitarian dictatorhips.

(Islam is not a religion is a form of government).

7/21/2016 3:19:28 AMAmerica is getting Socialist 

shylywilling
Over 2,000 Posts (2,686)
Medford, OR
56, joined Jan. 2008


I don't know what Lobo said about private property and socialism but I say that the post above giving an example definition of socialism consisting of no private property is wrong. No private property would be communism, not socialism. Socialism is just a description of the distribution priorities of private and public property. Within socialism private property leverage and advantage and it's ever present counter the disadvantaged always exists.

Again if no private property exists within a society, the society is communism, which is an equal value/voice for each and every citizen. Democracy and true Christianity also have this equal value/voice for each and every citizen in common with communism.

7/21/2016 6:12:24 AMAmerica is getting Socialist 

progrocknic
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (20,462)
Mount Arlington, NJ
33, joined Dec. 2012


Quote from stregaleonora:
You know what you are doing Lobocorazzon?
(probably without being aware of that)

You are behaving like those bullshitters who paint Islam like "a religion of peace" when anyone who read the Koran and the Sirah and Sunna knows that this is not true.

You are trying to paint Socialism like something that does not stink.
When everyone who read any decent economic text about it knows that that is not true.

Actually there are a few parallelisms between Islam and Socialism:
Both lie. Both take away the freedom from the people. And both are totalitarian dictatorhips.

(Islam is not a religion is a form of government).


Socialism is not a form of government, it is an economic model. Just like capitalism isn't a form of government but an economic model.

Dictatorship is a government type. Just like Democracy. You can have a democratic socialism, so your dictatorship comment is nonsensical.

7/21/2016 6:28:42 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 

shylywilling
Over 2,000 Posts (2,686)
Medford, OR
56, joined Jan. 2008


Chuckle.. One could pretend a democratic socialism but socialism is a form of private property capitalism and therefor cannot be democratic which is an equal voice/value for each and every citizen. Pretend all one wants but in the end the two democracy, and socialism are two very different paradigms. Democracy an equal voice/value for all. Just one public interest. Socialism is the, always doomed, attempt to apply the principle of civilization to the exact opposite interests of private property owners. It seems to help mitigate the tool of enslavement by treating the symptom while fully complicit with the cause.

Private property (capitalism) is the opposite, (enemy), of state/civilization. Private property is an enticing lethally toxic poison to any endeavor at a civilized society and socialism is just sugar/fig leaf to entice slaves to swallow.

Communism, true Christianity, and Democracy are all societal structures of one collective interest, public property, a kingdom, a nation, a species, and most important of all, a family. This is the concept of shared resource management. LORD God or Nature's intention.

Once a society introduces private property into the resource management system, the society can never again be a civil partnership of equality and from that moment on the society is doomed to fail from the inherently inevitable divisive inequitable leverages that private property create and nurture. Profits are not derived from thin air they are extracted from opportunity. The advantage of profit always produces greater disadvantages to thee whole. A species cannibalizing itself will eventually become extinct. LORD God or Nature's intention.

7/21/2016 10:00:19 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 

lobo_corazon
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (38,711)
Orleans, ON
48, joined May. 2008


Quote from stregaleonora:
Lobocorazon you are an idiot.

Quite the opposite - I'm extremely intelligent. Thing is, it takes one to know one.

7/21/2016 10:06:40 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 

lobo_corazon
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (38,711)
Orleans, ON
48, joined May. 2008


Quote from stregaleonora:
You know what you are doing Lobocorazzon?
(probably without being aware of that)

You are behaving like those bullshitters who paint Islam like "a religion of peace" when anyone who read the Koran and the Sirah and Sunna knows that this is not true.

You are trying to paint Socialism like something that does not stink.
When everyone who read any decent economic text about it knows that that is not true.

Actually there are a few parallelisms between Islam and Socialism:
Both lie. Both take away the freedom from the people. And both are totalitarian dictatorhips.

(Islam is not a religion is a form of government).

Fundamentalist Islam is extreme social conservative, above all. Within Islam (which accounts for about a billion people) there are certainly elements of socialism mixed with capitalism, no different from anywhere else. If you're going to put them on a side of one of these spectrums, the only one that has any merit is the strong link between Islam (and most other major world religions for that matter) and social conservatism.

It's ironic that fundy American social cons and fundy Middle Eastern social cons hate each other so bitterly, when ~90% of their belief systems are identical. Hate gays, women shouldn't compete with men, "we're the best, everyone else should be forced to be like us", don't question what your religious leaders tell you, and so on.

7/21/2016 10:07:11 PMAmerica is getting Socialist 

ludlowlowell
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (35,219)
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008


Quote from shylywilling:
Chuckle.. One could pretend a democratic socialism but socialism is a form of private property capitalism and therefor cannot be democratic which is an equal voice/value for each and every citizen. Pretend all one wants but in the end the two democracy, and socialism are two very different paradigms. Democracy an equal voice/value for all. Just one public interest. Socialism is the, always doomed, attempt to apply the principle of civilization to the exact opposite interests of private property owners. It seems to help mitigate the tool of enslavement by treating the symptom while fully complicit with the cause.

Private property (capitalism) is the opposite, (enemy), of state/civilization. Private property is an enticing lethally toxic poison to any endeavor at a civilized society and socialism is just sugar/fig leaf to entice slaves to swallow.

Communism, true Christianity, and Democracy are all societal structures of one collective interest, public property, a kingdom, a nation, a species, and most important of all, a family. This is the concept of shared resource management. LORD God or Nature's intention.

Once a society introduces private property into the resource management system, the society can never again be a civil partnership of equality and from that moment on the society is doomed to fail from the inherently inevitable divisive inequitable leverages that private property create and nurture. Profits are not derived from thin air they are extracted from opportunity. The advantage of profit always produces greater disadvantages to thee whole. A species cannibalizing itself will eventually become extinct. LORD God or Nature's intention.


Beautiful words, Shy. I can't argue with any of it, except for one thing---wherever it has been tried, socialism has failed.