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1/1/2015 9:12:31 PMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

walt_oftheearth
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,770)
Avondale, AZ
62, joined Feb. 2008


Quote from walt_oftheearth:

If you are truly happy and content in your beliefs, why is it you are here in the Religion forum?

Quote from sail_dancer:
To expose people like you for what they truly are ..... snake oil salesmen.


I am truly sorry you come to that conclusion

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1/1/2015 9:15:17 PMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

sail_dancer
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,647)
Saint Petersburg, FL
70, joined Apr. 2010


Quote from walt_oftheearth:
Because of this:

2 Corinthians 13-15 (KJV)

"And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

There is only one Great Shepherd, who is able to protect His flock.


........................................

You have got to be kidding.

Peace

1/1/2015 9:27:12 PMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

jrbogie1949
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (13,851)
Ventura, CA
68, joined Mar. 2009


Quote from walt_oftheearth:


If you are truly happy and content in your beliefs, why is it you are here in the Religion forum?


can't speak for sail but i'm here for the only reasons i ever get online; for my entertainment and amusement. oh i do trade a stock or two from time to time, pay some bills, do some shopping but these silly forums offer none of that so when i've some time to kill...........................

1/1/2015 11:24:28 PMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

olderthandirt20
Over 4,000 Posts! (5,853)
Waldron, AR
71, joined Jul. 2014


Quote from walt_oftheearth:
Quote from walt_oftheearth:

If you are truly happy and content in your beliefs, why is it you are here in the Religion forum?

Quote from sail_dancer:
To expose people like you for what they truly are ..... snake oil salesmen.


I am truly sorry you come to that conclusion



Answering only for myself,I too come to plant seeds .
Where you plant seeds of faith and submission to doctrines , I plant seeds of reason and knowledge.

1/2/2015 12:11:34 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

erikbenn
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (10,053)
Spokane, WA
43, joined Nov. 2010


I will take Godly ways and Godly knowledge over human reason and human knowledge any day.

1/2/2015 12:12:15 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 
clarencec
Over 2,000 Posts (3,667)
South Yorkshire
United Kingdom
60, joined Oct. 2008


I'll take human reason.

1/2/2015 12:37:17 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

rufftreasure
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (19,220)
Fairmont, MN
62, joined Jun. 2014


Quote from erikbenn:
I will take Godly ways and Godly knowledge over human reason and human knowledge any day.


Too violent and manipulate that Godly thing.

1/2/2015 12:41:55 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

erikbenn
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (10,053)
Spokane, WA
43, joined Nov. 2010


How so? You don't think it's possible for people to come to Christ on their own, ruff?

1/2/2015 12:46:24 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

rufftreasure
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (19,220)
Fairmont, MN
62, joined Jun. 2014


Where the hell did you come up with that, you must want me to ask you if you're that ignorant?

I'm tempted

1/2/2015 1:05:04 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

erikbenn
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (10,053)
Spokane, WA
43, joined Nov. 2010


From your post, ruff. You make it sound as if all Christians are brain dead and don't think for ourselves just because we don't think like you.

1/2/2015 3:35:51 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

sail_dancer
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,647)
Saint Petersburg, FL
70, joined Apr. 2010


Quote from rufftreasure:
Where the hell did you come up with that, you must want me to ask you if you're that ignorant?

I'm tempted



Eric has me blocked ..... but based on his past posts that were visible to me ..... I can understand your temptation to call him ignorant.

Peace

1/2/2015 7:18:40 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

jrbogie1949
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (13,851)
Ventura, CA
68, joined Mar. 2009


Quote from erikbenn:
I will take Godly ways and Godly knowledge over human reason and human knowledge any day.


no doubt about that. that being the case, why debate evolution or the big bang? both require at least some human knowledge, no?

1/2/2015 9:50:49 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

olderthandirt20
Over 4,000 Posts! (5,853)
Waldron, AR
71, joined Jul. 2014


Quote from erikbenn:
From your post, ruff. You make it sound as if all Christians are brain dead and don't think for ourselves just because we don't think like you.



You have already stated you have no need for human knowledge or rational thinking, you prefer to get your opinions from the bible and church elders.

It's not that you don't think like others, it's that you don't think.

1/2/2015 10:03:16 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

rufftreasure
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (19,220)
Fairmont, MN
62, joined Jun. 2014


Quote from erikbenn:
From your post, ruff. You make it sound as if all Christians are brain dead and don't think for ourselves just because we don't think like you.


I'm takin this case by case and in your case I'm not talkin to plurals, I'm addressing you.
And backin Dirt, when he implies, that YOU, don't think, you parrot pat answers, like an Automaton.

You are one of the examples ( rare ) that tip the scales towards actually agreeing with some about your apparent delusion. In your case, I have to question weather you checked your brains at the door????

Sorry, Clarencec, it's really hard to see where Loon isn't appropriate to the case of Eric ben



[Edited 1/2/2015 10:04:59 AM ]

1/2/2015 10:03:19 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

sail_dancer
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,647)
Saint Petersburg, FL
70, joined Apr. 2010


Quote from olderthandirt20:
You have already stated you have no need for human knowledge or rational thinking, you prefer to get your opinions from the bible and church elders.

It's not that you don't think like others, it's that you don't think.




Peace

1/2/2015 1:14:02 PMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

walt_oftheearth
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,770)
Avondale, AZ
62, joined Feb. 2008


Thought I'd get the thread back on topic by re-posting here, my opening thread....

How Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathomable Suffering? And for so long a time.

We reason that if we were God, we would immediately stamp out anything that could cause pain and suffering. This is true when we consider a good father or mother, protecting their children. If so with humans, why is it not so with God?

It's a very pressing and very valid question that deserves an answer.

Some say because there is evil and suffering in the world, there must not be a God. Or they reason:

God may be good, but unable to stop it,... or....
God is able to stop it, but doesn't care

Is there no other option for belief or disbelief?

Could it be that there is a God, and this God is good and loving, and able to stop evil and suffering? But for some reason we do not completely understand, does not immediately terminate the cause of evil and suffering?

In a court of law, is a perpetrator of evil immediately executed without a trial? In some cultures, they are. But not in a civilized society. They are given a trial, for evidence weighed by a jury, beyond the shadow of doubt.

Beyond the shadow of doubt.

What if there is a cosmic conflict between good and evil that is casting a long dark cloud over our world?

If you were one of God's angels, and you saw God crush the source of evil immediately, without a fair trial, what would you think?

1/3/2015 5:46:05 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

nonstandard
Over 2,000 Posts (3,991)
York, PA
55, joined Jun. 2009


Quote from walt_oftheearth:
Because of this:

2 Corinthians 13-15 (KJV)

"And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

There is only one Great Shepherd, who is able to protect His flock.


What does the great shepherd protect his flock from ? Does he protect them from prejudism and bigotry ? Does he magically turn acts of hatred , and contempt , into acts of love , and kindness ?

1/3/2015 1:46:41 PMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

walt_oftheearth
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,770)
Avondale, AZ
62, joined Feb. 2008


Quote from walt_oftheearth:
Because of this:

2 Corinthians 13-15 (KJV)

"And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

There is only one Great Shepherd, who is able to protect His flock.

Quote from nonstandard:
What does the great shepherd protect his flock from ? Does he protect them from prejudism and bigotry ? Does he magically turn acts of hatred , and contempt , into acts of love , and kindness ?


No, He may choose not to protect them from these things. Jesus said "A servant is not greater than His Lord. They have persecuted me. They will also persecute you."

Of course, in North America there has not been any real dangerous persecution of Christians. But it has and does occur in other parts of the world.

When Jesus said He is the Great Shepherd, and that He knows His sheep and they know Him, He saves them for eternity. They may be harmed on earth, but as He said "not one hair on your head will perish."

"God so loved the world that whosoever believes in Him should not perish."

1/3/2015 11:52:53 PMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

erikbenn
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (10,053)
Spokane, WA
43, joined Nov. 2010


Quote from olderthandirt20:
You have already stated you have no need for human knowledge or rational thinking, you prefer to get your opinions from the bible and church elders.

It's not that you don't think like others, it's that you don't think.
There you go acting as if you know my life's story. I don't think, because I don't think like you, right? It's human rationality that justifies all the evil things in the world. And everyone of you non-believers your only course of action is to attack, because you yourselves have nothing of substance to offer.

1/4/2015 5:10:01 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

sail_dancer
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,647)
Saint Petersburg, FL
70, joined Apr. 2010


Quote from walt_oftheearth:
Jesus said "A servant is not greater than His Lord. They have persecuted me. They will also persecute you."

Of course, in North America there has not been any real dangerous persecution of Christians. But it has and does occur in other parts of the world.

When Jesus said He is the Great Shepherd, and that He knows His sheep and they know Him, He saves them for eternity. They may be harmed on earth, but as He said "not one hair on your head will perish."

"God so loved the world that whosoever believes in Him should not perish."


Total fantasy taken from a book of fables called the christian bible.

Peace

1/4/2015 9:49:50 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

olderthandirt20
Over 4,000 Posts! (5,853)
Waldron, AR
71, joined Jul. 2014


Quote from erikbenn:
There you go acting as if you know my life's story. I don't think, because I don't think like you, right? It's human rationality that justifies all the evil things in the world. And everyone of you non-believers your only course of action is to attack, because you yourselves have nothing of substance to offer.



Where did I attack you? I only pointed out your words and clarified your misconception. You stated you had no interest in factual knowledge only biblical knowledge.
And as for substance where is the substance you have to offer,you offer scripture from a 2000 year old fairytale and call it substance?

Really you need to develop a thicker skin if you intend to defend your faith (by definition un substantiated ).

1/4/2015 9:54:04 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

rufftreasure
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (19,220)
Fairmont, MN
62, joined Jun. 2014


Yes, Ericben, where's your testimony then, your life story???

1/5/2015 10:52:39 PMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

walt_oftheearth
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,770)
Avondale, AZ
62, joined Feb. 2008


Quote from sail_dancer:
Total fantasy taken from a book of fables called the christian bible.

Peace


It's really not the Christian Bible, but a Judea-Christian Bible. Because it contains most of the Old Testament scrolls. as well.

This life isn't a trial run, Sail. It's the only opportunity we have to have our eyes and ears opened to what Christmas was all about.

1/6/2015 12:23:26 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

erikbenn
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (10,053)
Spokane, WA
43, joined Nov. 2010


Quote from rufftreasure:
Yes, Ericben, where's your testimony then, your life story???
Just how is it do you think I owe you my life's story?

And if a gave you a testimony would you be open minded to it, or would you attack me?

1/6/2015 2:38:59 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

sail_dancer
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,647)
Saint Petersburg, FL
70, joined Apr. 2010


Quote from walt_oftheearth:
It's really not the Christian Bible, but a Judea-Christian Bible. Because it contains most of the Old Testament scrolls. as well.

This life isn't a trial run, Sail. It's the only opportunity we have to have our eyes and ears opened to what Christmas was all about.


A mythical account of the birth of a man-god ..... born of a virgin ..... who was impregnated by a ghost.

It is not even an original story ..... there are many similar man-god myths that are much older than christianity.

Peace

1/6/2015 6:42:13 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

olderthandirt20
Over 4,000 Posts! (5,853)
Waldron, AR
71, joined Jul. 2014


Quote from erikbenn:
Just how is it do you think I owe you my life's story?

And if a gave you a testimony would you be open minded to it, or would you attack me?



Quote from erikbenn:
There you go acting as if you know my life's story. I don't think, because I don't think like you, right? It's human rationality that justifies all the evil things in the world. And everyone of you non-believers your only course of action is to attack, because you yourselves have nothing of substance to offer.



Where did I attack you? I only pointed out your words and clarified your misconception. You stated you had no interest in factual knowledge only biblical knowledge.


Why do you assume every body is attacking you? Just because they question you on your posts doesn't constitute an attack.

Why are you attempting to sidestep my question?

1/6/2015 6:44:41 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

rufftreasure
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (19,220)
Fairmont, MN
62, joined Jun. 2014


Quote from erikbenn:
Just how is it do you think I owe you my life's story?

And if a gave you a testimony would you be open minded to it, or would you attack me?


I think it's only fair the way you yap at my heels

1/6/2015 7:40:47 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

jrbogie1949
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (13,851)
Ventura, CA
68, joined Mar. 2009


Quote from walt_oftheearth:

This life isn't a trial run, Sail. It's the only opportunity we have to have our eyes and ears opened to what Christmas was all about.


but but but you keep saying there's life beyond this one.

1/6/2015 7:45:41 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

rufftreasure
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (19,220)
Fairmont, MN
62, joined Jun. 2014


Quote from erikbenn:
Just how is it do you think I owe you my life's story?

And if a gave you a testimony would you be open minded to it, or would you attack me?


Also all your talk about evidence and witnesses, remind my that YOU need to step up to the plate on it.

1/6/2015 3:26:50 PMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 
mrhankchinaski
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,691)
Aurora, CO
56, joined Aug. 2014


Quote from walt_oftheearth:
And for so long a time.

We reason that if we were God, we would immediately stamp out anything that could cause pain and suffering. This is true when we consider a good father or mother, protecting their children. If so with humans, why is it not so with God?

It's a very pressing and very valid question that deserves an answer.

Some say because there is evil and suffering in the world, there must not be a God. Or they reason:

God may be good, but unable to stop it,... or....
God is able to stop it, but doesn't care

Is there no other option for belief or disbelief?

Could it be that there is a God, and this God is good and loving, and able to stop evil and suffering? But for some reason we do not completely understand, does not immediately terminate the cause of evil and suffering?

In a court of law, is a perpetrator of evil immediately executed without a trial? In some cultures, they are. But not in a civilized society. They are given a trial, for evidence weighed by a jury, beyond the shadow of doubt.

Beyond the shadow of doubt.

What if there is a cosmic conflict between good and evil that is casting a long dark cloud over our world?

If you were one of God's angels, and you saw God crush the source of evil immediately, without a fair trial, what would you think?


When I was young maggot on Paris Island I was introduced to a saying. "No pain no gain".

After that I was introduced to the Sakyamuni Buddha's Four Noble Truths.

I already had the Beatitudes, being Catholic.

The two Jesus and Buddha.

The Beatitudes and the Four Noble Truths have been my answer.

1/6/2015 8:04:58 PMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

walt_oftheearth
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,770)
Avondale, AZ
62, joined Feb. 2008


Quote from walt_oftheearth:

This life isn't a trial run, Sail. It's the only opportunity we have to have our eyes and ears opened to what Christmas was all about.

Quote from jrbogie1949:
but but but you keep saying there's life beyond this one.


I do. Because I believe Christmas is far far more than yuletide and eggnog. I believe this because of hearing the words of the One that invaded this dark world.

If we tried to communicate with ants, one of us would have to become one.

Not saying we are as insignificant as ants, but for illustration only.

And maybe ants aren't insignificant. They perform a vital role.

Perhaps God remembers them, as He does the sparrow that falls.

1/6/2015 8:22:52 PMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

jrbogie1949
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (13,851)
Ventura, CA
68, joined Mar. 2009


Quote from walt_oftheearth:

I do. Because I believe Christmas is far far more than yuletide and eggnog. .


uh, you believe there's an afterlife because you believe christams is far far more than yuletide and eggnog?????

1/6/2015 8:41:19 PMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

walt_oftheearth
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,770)
Avondale, AZ
62, joined Feb. 2008


Quote from walt_oftheearth:

I do. Because I believe Christmas is far far more than yuletide and eggnog. .

Quote from jrbogie1949:
uh, you believe there's an afterlife because you believe christams is far far more than yuletide and eggnog?????


Yes. I do.

Christmas is about a real gift--God invading our dark world and inoculating it with "a good infection," as the great Christians author, C.S. Lewis, called it.

Like a flu shot, the infection of death is cured with the life of God, which could not be held by death.

Therefore, those that believe God loved us that much, inherit eternal life.

It really isn't any more complicated than that.

But what a tragedy if someone passes up this kind of gift, on account of worthless, vain human pride.



[Edited 1/6/2015 8:42:30 PM ]

1/6/2015 9:09:20 PMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

sail_dancer
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,647)
Saint Petersburg, FL
70, joined Apr. 2010


Quote from walt_oftheearth:
Quote from walt_oftheearth:

I do. Because I believe Christmas is far far more than yuletide and eggnog. .

Quote from jrbogie1949:
uh, you believe there's an afterlife because you believe christams is far far more than yuletide and eggnog?????


Yes. I do.

Christmas is about a real gift--God invading our dark world and inoculating it with "a good infection," as the great Christians author, C.S. Lewis, called it.

Like a flu shot, the infection of death is cured with the life of God, which could not be held by death.

Therefore, those that believe God loved us that much, inherit eternal life.

It really isn't any more complicated than that.

But what a tragedy if someone passes up this kind of gift, on account of worthless, vain human pride.


You really believe that bullshit?

Peace

1/6/2015 9:16:25 PMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 
killercliche
Over 1,000 Posts (1,074)
Fort Pierce, FL
37, joined Sep. 2014


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2015/01/06/bob-mcdonnell-sentencing/21321365/
He thanked " the lord and jesus Christ".

1/6/2015 11:58:27 PMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

maxwalbridge
Over 1,000 Posts (1,360)
Redwood City, CA
26, joined Nov. 2013


So we can know understand and learn. For our lights as far as I have it.

1/7/2015 2:24:48 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

sail_dancer
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,647)
Saint Petersburg, FL
70, joined Apr. 2010


Quote from maxwalbridge:
So we can know understand and learn. For our lights as far as I have it.


Say what?

Peace

1/7/2015 6:39:54 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

jrbogie1949
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (13,851)
Ventura, CA
68, joined Mar. 2009


Quote from walt_oftheearth:

Like a flu shot, the infection of death is cured with the life of God, which could not be held by death.

.


the flu is a virus, not an infection.

1/8/2015 8:37:50 PMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

walt_oftheearth
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,770)
Avondale, AZ
62, joined Feb. 2008


Quote from walt_oftheearth:

Like a flu shot, the infection of death is cured with the life of God, which could not be held by death.

Quote from jrbogie1949:
the flu is a virus, not an infection.


It still fits. The infection of death is cured with the life of God, which could not be held by death.

The good news of the Gospel, recorded & revealed in the New Testament, can best be appreciated by those who long for good news.

For those who's "own" life is going a long merrily, thank you,please--no other good news is desired.

But sooner or later, to everyone, comes pain. And that, when nothing else awakens, is "God's megaphone to rouse a deaf world." (C.S. Lewis)

1/9/2015 12:45:44 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 
treec36
Saint Petersburg, FL
39, joined Oct. 2014


evil chose it self but suffering is were he's at
doing most work

1/9/2015 8:25:42 PMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

walt_oftheearth
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,770)
Avondale, AZ
62, joined Feb. 2008


Quote from treec36:
evil chose it self but suffering is were he's at
doing most work


True, Treec.

Folk who have a hard time believing in a God that continues to allow human suffering, don't understand that suffering is part of saving grace. How many would never call out to God for understanding were it not for suffering?

It is God's megaphone to rouse a deaf world.

1/9/2015 8:36:08 PMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 
clarencec
Over 2,000 Posts (3,667)
South Yorkshire
United Kingdom
60, joined Oct. 2008


Suffering exists because evolution is a process that favours the reproduction of genes, with living organisms an incidental means to this end. The universe is indifferent to suffering, while evolution tends to favour the genes of those organisms that manage to reproduce before they suffer disease and death. Just because the universe is indifferent to suffering doesn't mean we have to be. As intelligent social animals, it's quite natural that we should seek to limit our own suffering by reciprocal caring for other who suffer. It's also quite natural that we should ponder the meaning of suffering - hence religious/philosophical works like Job and Ecclesiastes.



[Edited 1/9/2015 8:37:05 PM ]

1/9/2015 8:39:30 PMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

rufftreasure
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (19,220)
Fairmont, MN
62, joined Jun. 2014


That's a killer post, Clarencec

1/9/2015 8:45:04 PMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

wayn49
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,024)
Birmingham, AL
56, joined Feb. 2011


i do not understand but in the end for those who kept the faith no matter what God has a better plan

1/9/2015 9:07:41 PMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

walt_oftheearth
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,770)
Avondale, AZ
62, joined Feb. 2008


Quote from clarencec:
Suffering exists because evolution is a process that favours the reproduction of genes, with living organisms an incidental means to this end. The universe is indifferent to suffering


I remember Richard Dawkins being asked "if evolution were true, why is it that we don't see today, monkeys in the process of evolving into humans?"

His answer was that humans and monkeys have a common ancestor, but we don't know what that was.

"We don't know."

Sound to me a lot like faith. Religion.

1/10/2015 3:36:42 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

sail_dancer
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,647)
Saint Petersburg, FL
70, joined Apr. 2010


Quote from walt_oftheearth:
Sound to me a lot like faith. Religion.



Wrong again, Walt.

Coming to a most likely conclusion based on where all the evidence points ..... does not require faith.

Faith is only needed when ..... you know deep down inside that there is no evidence to support your views ..... and ..... you still insist that they are true. Since this is against natural human reasoning ..... you require religion to reinforce your unsupported dogmas.

Peace

1/10/2015 3:52:55 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 
clarencec
Over 2,000 Posts (3,667)
South Yorkshire
United Kingdom
60, joined Oct. 2008


.
Quote from walt_oftheearth:
I remember Richard Dawkins being asked "if evolution were true, why is it that we don't see today, monkeys in the process of evolving into humans?"

Humans are a kind of ape, not monkey. Apes all have relatively intelligent brains for their body size, lack tails, have 32 teeth, presence of an appendix, elbow joints that share a particular articulation, forward facing eyes and many other traits. Apes have 48 chromosomes while humans have 46. There's compelling evidence that a fusion of two ape chromosomes happened in humans after we diverged from other apes. This sort of event is known from other species. The only extant wild species of horse has 66 chromosomes while other horses have 64.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi8FfMBYCkk

Why we don't see other apes evolving into humans today is because the human lineage diverged from the ape lineage that lead to chimpanzees an estimated 5 - 7 million years ago. Chimpanzees are the only extant survivor of that particular ape lineage. Gorillas and Orangutans branched off several million years earlier. Chimpanzees remained in an arboreal environment and evolved specializations for thriving there, such as knuckle walking and massive upper body strength equivalent to that of about five men. If Chimpanzees are going to continue to evolve and eventually give rise to descendants that are more like humans it will take hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of years to happen. This is why we don't see significant evolution taking place in a human lifetime. It isn't known if chimpanzees ever would evolve in that way. I expect it would be highly unlikely. Humans aren't a kind of logical step up the ladder from chimpanzees, like an improved model of car. We're just an animal that evolved differently, for complex reasons, some of them random, and possibly involving developments of bipedalism, a change of habitat to life on the open plains, tool use and the advantage of intelligence and language for social living and dealing with predators.

His answer was that humans and monkeys have a common ancestor, but we don't know what that was.

"We don't know."

Sound to me a lot like faith. Religion.

We don't know what the common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees looked like and we may never know, because fossils are rare, and ape fossils are rarer still because bones don't preserve well in arboreal environments. Also, the chances of finding remains of one particular targeted species is vanishingly slim. The most we can hope for is to find something closely related to it. We do have a selection of ape man fossils (the australopithecines) that walked upright and either represent direct ancestors of humans or are close relatives to that ancestor. Fossils don't come with labels on them, so experts examine their morphological traits and estimate where they probably lie on the human family tree. It isn't faith though to deduce that humans and chimpanzees evolved from a common ancestor, because there's sufficient evidence even if we had no fossils at all to work from. Evidence from homology and DNA comparison of living species shows their relatedness. View the Kenneth Miller video I linked about how two ape chromosomes became fused in the human lineage.



[Edited 1/10/2015 3:54:12 AM ]

1/10/2015 4:16:27 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

sail_dancer
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,647)
Saint Petersburg, FL
70, joined Apr. 2010


Quote from clarencec:
.
Quote from walt_oftheearth:
I remember Richard Dawkins being asked "if evolution were true, why is it that we don't see today, monkeys in the process of evolving into humans?"

Humans are a kind of ape, not monkey. Apes all have relatively intelligent brains for their body size, lack tails, have 32 teeth, presence of an appendix, elbow joints that share a particular articulation, forward facing eyes and many other traits. Apes have 48 chromosomes while humans have 46. There's compelling evidence that a fusion of two ape chromosomes happened in humans after we diverged from other apes. This sort of event is known from other species. The only extant wild species of horse has 66 chromosomes while other horses have 64.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi8FfMBYCkk

Why we don't see other apes evolving into humans today is because the human lineage diverged from the ape lineage that lead to chimpanzees an estimated 5 - 7 million years ago. Chimpanzees are the only extant survivor of that particular ape lineage. Gorillas and Orangutans branched off several million years earlier. Chimpanzees remained in an arboreal environment and evolved specializations for thriving there, such as knuckle walking and massive upper body strength equivalent to that of about five men. If Chimpanzees are going to continue to evolve and eventually give rise to descendants that are more like humans it will take hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of years to happen. This is why we don't see significant evolution taking place in a human lifetime. It isn't known if chimpanzees ever would evolve in that way. I expect it would be highly unlikely. Humans aren't a kind of logical step up the ladder from chimpanzees, like an improved model of car. We're just an animal that evolved differently, for complex reasons, some of them random, and possibly involving developments of bipedalism, a change of habitat to life on the open plains, tool use and the advantage of intelligence and language for social living and dealing with predators.

His answer was that humans and monkeys have a common ancestor, but we don't know what that was.

"We don't know."

Sound to me a lot like faith. Religion.

We don't know what the common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees looked like and we may never know, because fossils are rare, and ape fossils are rarer still because bones don't preserve well in arboreal environments. Also, the chances of finding remains of one particular targeted species is vanishingly slim. The most we can hope for is to find something closely related to it. We do have a selection of ape man fossils (the australopithecines) that walked upright and either represent direct ancestors of humans or are close relatives to that ancestor. Fossils don't come with labels on them, so experts examine their morphological traits and estimate where they probably lie on the human family tree. It isn't faith though to deduce that humans and chimpanzees evolved from a common ancestor, because there's sufficient evidence even if we had no fossils at all to work from. Evidence from homology and DNA comparison of living species shows their relatedness. View the Kenneth Miller video I linked about how two ape chromosomes became fused in the human lineage.


Another excellent post, Clarence !

Peace

1/10/2015 10:01:07 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

turkalurk82
Over 1,000 Posts (1,071)
Godfrey, IL
35, joined Sep. 2014


I would guess if a loving person created life on earth, then the purpose of suffering would probably involve the evolution of intelligence. Without pain, we wouldn't know when a change in our environment is needed. Without grief, we might not be so protective of life. Its our passion to avoid pain. Without this passion, there would be no medicine. Eventually, we will become smart enough to save the entire planet from cataclysmic disasters. Now, in that sense, I am grateful for suffering. Suffering inspires change. Our efforts to make these changes develop our intellectual capabilities.



[Edited 1/10/2015 10:01:47 AM ]

1/10/2015 7:22:30 PMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

nonstandard
Over 2,000 Posts (3,991)
York, PA
55, joined Jun. 2009


Quote from walt_oftheearth:
Quote from walt_oftheearth:

Like a flu shot, the infection of death is cured with the life of God, which could not be held by death.

Quote from jrbogie1949:
the flu is a virus, not an infection.


It still fits. The infection of death is cured with the life of God, which could not be held by death.

The good news of the Gospel, recorded & revealed in the New Testament, can best be appreciated by those who long for good news.

For those who's "own" life is going a long merrily, thank you,please--no other good news is desired.

But sooner or later, to everyone, comes pain. And that, when nothing else awakens, is "God's megaphone to rouse a deaf world." (C.S. Lewis)


Everything we adore about ourselves is based on our over-inflated human intellgence , which really is'nt human at all . I'm almost afraid to ask how organisms , bacteria , and viruses , fit into your grand shceme of things .

How much intelligence does it take for a tiny little organism to adapt , and mutate , into something incurable ? Do you honestly believe god is using satan to deliver a message?

Perhaps we might take it as a clue , that no matter how awesome we might think we are , that mother nature can kick our asses around the block , any day of the week .

Should we deny the physical presense of the world around us just so we can imagine , and pretend , our own utopia ?

You can imagine an afterlife of pure bliss in a heaven created by a life you've had the pleasure to live , if you want to . As for myself , seeing my great , great , grandchildren screwed out of the life I've come to love , and adore , would be sheer hell .

I must confess , that I dont have any faith whatsoever , that any god will repair any of the life I absently piss all over right now . When do I , as a human , take full responsibility for everything that is NOT me .

1/10/2015 8:19:27 PMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

walt_oftheearth
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,770)
Avondale, AZ
62, joined Feb. 2008


Quote from turkalurk82:
Eventually, we will become smart enough to save the entire planet from cataclysmic disasters.


Not while there is still government encouraged corporate greed, my friend. Corporations today elect and keep in office politicians around the world, who will do their bidding; not the common mans.

1/10/2015 8:24:51 PMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

manniblelector
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,584)
Vancouver, WA
39, joined Apr. 2013


simple answer, cause' Adam, and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good, and evil, they chose our fate in the world.

1/10/2015 9:18:41 PMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

nonstandard
Over 2,000 Posts (3,991)
York, PA
55, joined Jun. 2009


Quote from walt_oftheearth:
Not while there is still government encouraged corporate greed, my friend. Corporations today elect and keep in office politicians around the world, who will do their bidding; not the common mans.


With intelligence comes greed , its a part of the package , it makes all life possible .


We think we are the exception , we think we can dress it up , and make it look pretty , but we're wrong . A fancier dress is'nt going to make a damn bit of difference .

1/10/2015 9:46:41 PMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

walt_oftheearth
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,770)
Avondale, AZ
62, joined Feb. 2008


Quote from nonstandard:
We think we are the exception , we think we can dress it up , and make it look pretty , but we're wrong . A fancier dress is'nt going to make a damn bit of difference .


What you wrote, NS, reminded me of what was said by the Christ, Jesus:

Matthew 23:27

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Outward appearance, in the Day of God, isn't going to mean a thing.

1/10/2015 10:31:58 PMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

nonstandard
Over 2,000 Posts (3,991)
York, PA
55, joined Jun. 2009


Quote from walt_oftheearth:
What you wrote, NS, reminded me of what was said by the Christ, Jesus:

Matthew 23:27

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Outward appearance, in the Day of God, isn't going to mean a thing.


I love this . Whatever I may be now , I grew up on christianity . Christ loved everyone UNCONDIIONALLY . This is taught to every child in sunday shcool , and I love it . So much that I have whole-heartededly supported it for my own children .

Allthough I'm no longer christian myself , I will totally support this christian value until the day I die . It is important ! It is vitally important !!! It means everything !!!

Persecution is quite literally HELL ON EARTH !!!

I do however , have my own insights , and I express them , because I love them so much . Of course this is purely selfish , but I dont care .
Ironically , or in spite of it , they totally get it . They will be the first to let me know if I'm the insensative one .

1/11/2015 2:24:10 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

norwegianwood64
Over 4,000 Posts! (5,187)
Dothan, AL
54, joined Jul. 2014


If you believe the Bible, then it is obvious that God has no control or chooses to not help or control this world...basically we are on our own. Satan and one third of the angels were cast out of heaven, so there were some serious issues going on long before adam and eve came along. Adama and eve only disobeyed but they were really not capable of sin. They didn't even realize they were even naked before eating the apple. They were obviously mentally challenged or did not know what sin was, so they cannot be blamed for sinning.

Some say satan is in reference to the Sumerian texts and the story of enki and enlil. The Annuaki genetically modified primitive man to mine gold and other precious metals for the Annuaki. Enki wanted man to be enlightened and genetically modified to be more like the Annuaki while Enlil just wanted us as slaves and dumbed down. Enki is satan in this story as the serpent told eve if she ate the apple, she would be enlightened and more like God (Annuaki). So actually, satan is the good guy in the OT of the bible.



[Edited 1/11/2015 2:25:19 AM ]

1/11/2015 9:48:34 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

jrbogie1949
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (13,851)
Ventura, CA
68, joined Mar. 2009


Quote from walt_oftheearth:
I remember Richard Dawkins being asked "if evolution were true, why is it that we don't see today, monkeys in the process of evolving into humans?"

His answer was that humans and monkeys have a common ancestor, but we don't know what that was.

"We don't know."

Sound to me a lot like faith. Religion.


dead wrong. because we don't know we put NO FAITH in saying that we do know. if one were to say that he does know, that would require faith that the theory is correct and though the theory has passed strict scrutiny under the scientific method it can never be proved to be correct. faith simply is a word never used in the scientific community.

1/11/2015 11:39:36 AMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

sail_dancer
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,647)
Saint Petersburg, FL
70, joined Apr. 2010


Quote from jrbogie1949:
dead wrong. because we don't know we put NO FAITH in saying that we do know. if one were to say that he does know, that would require faith that the theory is correct and though the theory has passed strict scrutiny under the scientific method it can never be proved to be correct. faith simply is a word never used in the scientific community.




But do you really expect Walt to understand this?

Peace

1/12/2015 5:04:01 PMHow Can A Loving God Permit Evil And Unfathonable Suffering? | Page 2 

nonstandard
Over 2,000 Posts (3,991)
York, PA
55, joined Jun. 2009


We can see the acts of a terrorist , and we can see they're horrendous . Why cant they see it , why cant their commerads see it , why does it fill them with joy ?

These people did'nt just wake up one day and decide they were going to kill people for allah . I took years of behavioral conditioning , that began as nothing more than words .

Words that told them they were better than everyone else , that people not like them deserve to suffer , and they should enjoy seeing them suffer .