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1/24/2015 2:06:38 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 
mrhankchinaski
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,691)
Aurora, CO
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Quote from iyamwutiyam:
Probably necessary to pretend piety to not be tortured to death instead of being put under house arrest for the rest of his life. One more thing to piss off totalitarian theocratic clergy would have put him to death.


I doubt he was pretending.

He raised his daughter to become a nun.

Do you have any proof that he was pretending?

Every historical account I have ever read of his life has indicated the sincerity of his piety.

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1/24/2015 2:13:47 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

rufftreasure
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (19,220)
Fairmont, MN
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Quote from iyamwutiyam:
So its ok to be put under house arrest for life? Too bad your nice form of rudeness isn't against such an injustice and making you incapable of lovin a brother from a distant past.


Better imprisoned in a lavish style, house arrest, than tortured or dead.
I don't get nasty with anyone till I have had enough.
I have had enough of yous cyber bullying.
That's plural.
You're both f**ked up.

1/24/2015 2:14:55 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 
mrhankchinaski
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,691)
Aurora, CO
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Quote from sail_dancer:
No ..... they gave him a life sentence in jail.

Peace


The inquisition never layed a hand on him.

He was never in jail either.

He was placed under house arrest for t he last 9 years of his life.

The house and his expenses were provided by the church.

He lived out his life in comfort till he was 77 and was then buried in a catholic church.

He also attended mass and received the sacraments till he died.

He was as I said a good catholic his entire life.

His daughter a catholic nun sister arcangela is buried with him.

1/25/2015 2:41:59 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 
mrhankchinaski
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,691)
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I just read that both his daughters became nuns.

BTW. The protestants like the church of England would have probably burned him at the stake for being a heliocentrist.

1/25/2015 3:44:41 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

sail_dancer
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Saint Petersburg, FL
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Quote from mrhankchinaski:
I just read that both his daughters became nuns.

BTW. The protestants like the church of England would have probably burned him at the stake for being a heliocentrist.


I stand corrected ..... and agree with you on this post.

Peace

1/25/2015 5:02:47 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 
mrhankchinaski
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,691)
Aurora, CO
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That was really the driving force behind the Roman Inquisitions persecution of Galileo.

This happened I believe in the hundred years following the protestant reformation. So the Catholic Church was still reeling from that loss.

Copernicus came along with heliocentrism. Now this is confusing. I know that the writings of Copernicus were at some point banned by the church, but I also know that Copernicus himself was criticized by certain catholic clergy for his heliocentric model but not really persecuted or punished.

As a matter of fact heliocentrism as a theory was taught in catholic universities of the time.

The church had a very lenient attitude about scientific research. Catholic scientists at that time in catholic territories were free to theorized about anything. Even if it went against scripture.

This is very catholic. We do not believe in Sola Scripture as protestants do. We have never been scriptural literalists.

Thomas Aquinas even wrote that scripture must be validated by the observations of the natural world.

So when the church showed this tolerance of heliocentrism the protestants being the spawn of that disgusting fool Martin Luther attacked the church.

Protestants being imbecile scriptural literalists, even to this day, pointed to some scriptural reference about the sun standing still in the sky.

They used that one biblical reference as their sole validation of geocentrism.

When they saw and heard of the Catholic church allowing heliocentrism to be tolerated and actually taught in catholic universities they used this as an excuse to say "look catholics don't take scripture seriously".

Which by the way is kind of true. We listen to our church not the bible, and what our church says about the bible.

Anyway this tension between the protestants and the Catholic church was the main motivating factor as to why Galileo was persecuted by the Roman Inquisition.

It started when Galileo ' s observations through his telescope seemed to confirm heliocentrism.

The Inquisition wanting to prove the protestants wrong, and wanting to seem as if the church was taking scripture literally attacked Galileo writings about his heliocentric confirming observations.

Now this is were it gets confusing. If Galileo had just kept his mouth shut and continued on as a scientist he would not have had any oroblems, but he didnt.

You see the Vatican had no problem with science. Or with scientists coming up with theories like heliocentrism that seemed to contradict scripture.

The issue was when scientists used those theories to try and reinterpret scripture.

This was the big no no back in those days. The church was very lenient about scientific research. They were the ones who funded Galileo research. They just wanted scientists to stick to science.

If you were a scientist back then you weren't supposed to comment on how your observations and theories related to scripture.

How those discoveries related to scripture was the job of the clergy. Scientists were supposed to stay out of that.

Galileo didnt. He responded to the Inquisiti ons attacks of his writings and in doing so started to comment on how those observations he made confirming heliocentrism could be used to reinterpret scripture.

Big big no no back then. He was stepping into the realm of the clergy by commenting on how scripture should be reinterpretted.

Now the thing is the Pope was a friend of Galileos. So we're the Jesuits. Even thou h the Pope was a geocentrist he still didn't really have a problem with Galileo so the Pope and the Jesuits smoothed things over with the Inquisition and they gave Galileo On The wrist.

That would have been the end of it, but Galileo being the nudge he was kept writing.

He wrote this piece which was a fictionalized debate between a heliocentrist and a geocentrist. He named the geocentrism Simplicicos. Which at the time was italian for simpleton. He portrayed Simplicity as a bumbling idiot who would trap himself in his own argument.

Now everyone knew that the Pope was a geocentrism so they said Galileo us making fun of the Pope by portraying the Pope as Simplicicos. Was Galileo really doing that. Who knows. Some historians think he was.

Anyway THIS Got Him In Trouble again. This time the Pope was mad at Galileo, and he allowed the Inquisition to prosecute for a second time.

Even the Jesuits couldn't stop this. But the Pope loved Galileo. They were friends. But the Pope just couldn't let Galileo make fun of him in his writings.

So the second trial began. The thing is The Pope and the Jesuits weren't going to let anything happen to Galileo. So they worked out a deal were he would be placed under house arrest.

It was a cushy deal. Galileo Was First Place In A Very NICE House provided For By The church. Then he was even allowed to move back into his own villa.

He was under constant guard by the Vatican. Most historians I have read say this was really to protect him.

The thing is that most Americans get the protestant version of this story.

They think that the church was prosecuting Galileo because the church was anti science and because Galileo Was Going Against Official Geocentric church policy.

That is bullshit. There was no official geocentric church policy. Galileo got into trouble for stepping on the clergy ' s toes and using his heliocentric confirming observations to reinterpret scripture on his own, and for appearing to make fun of the Pope.

The sad thing was that part of the deal to appease the Inquisition was that Galileo and Copernicus' s writings were placed on the banned list.

But the church even lifted that after a few hundred years in the 1700's.

1/25/2015 5:21:09 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

sail_dancer
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,647)
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^^^Good ..... well written post^^^



Peace

1/25/2015 6:15:51 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

up2youandme
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (17,198)
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@mrhank

That's a lot of maybes on that my friend. ....but the rift between galileo and the catholic church as well as the Jesuit didn't come until the day he backs the viability of copernicus' heliocentrism. ...

Which by the way was advanced into the world by archimedes sometime in 200 bce ....
which of course was refuted by the romans and subsequently quashed by Constantine and his band of scholars ...at the first roman catholic congress sometime in 100 ADE ...

1/25/2015 7:21:05 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

iyamwutiyam
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The history of Galileo is highly documented. I think this would make a great thread all on its own because I'm finding several points of view in the record. I suggest using .edu sites for sources.

Getting back to the church of England. Why are they embracing mental illness to the point of saying all the biblical characters may all have been mentally ill?

Does the Church of England believe that hallucinations and other psychosis is God's way of communicating with humans? Is being mentally ill a way of getting closer to God? It seems to be the case when one examines the behaviors and bizarre beliefs of biblical characters and those made into saints. Throughout history, many were attracted to mentally ill people who were delivering a religious message.

Simeon the Stylite was mentally ill.

http://jdc.jefferson.edu/jeffjpsychiatry/vol14/iss2/6/



In reviewing his life, we see evidence of a religious experience combined with what we would now consider to be signs of psychopathology.
--------------------
In looking back on this rather unusual life, we examined the accounts to see whether we could discern any recognizable patterns of a psychiatric illness
-------------------------
1) Descriptions of behaviour reported by others:

a) An abrupt and total toithdraioalfrom society at a very young age.
Throughout his life Simeon continued to shun the company of others.
b) Profound self-mutilation and neglect.
He had serious foot ulcers which he ignored to the point that they were infested with maggots. There are frequent descriptions of the foul smell he gave off, which was striking even in the fifth century. He also had the need to mortify his flesh to such an extent that he was expelled from the monastery. He went for long periods without eating or drinking.
c) Repeated periods of prolonged motor immobility.
It is recorded that he lay prostrate and immobile for several days on at least two occasions.
d) Bizarre and idiosyncratic choice of monastic life-style.
He lived on top of a pillar for many years. The top of the pillar was so small that he did not even have space to lie down.
e) Repeated prophetic exhortations.
From the descriptions given, it is not always possible to know if Simeon's own voice was heard by the crowd or if his words were relayed by someone else . In either case, he seems to have been preoccupied by certain themes in his preaching.
f ) Repetitive, symbolic actions.
One contemporary observer repored that he bowed on his pillar 1244 times in one day.
g) Excessive strivings toward purity and perfection.
He would not tolerate any woman to come in close proximity of his pillar. Although this is at variance with the Western understanding of relationships, this tradition continues today among some Eastern Orthodox groups and may not necessarily reflect psychopathology.

2) Descriptions of experiences described by Simeon:

a) Visual imagery.
This imagery had a detailed content of a symbolic and prophetic nature. It is unclear whether this was a vivid dream or a true hallucination. Simeon later acted on this vision by building the pillar, the tall superstructure whose foundation he had seen himself digging in his vision.
b) Hallucinations.
He may have experienced auditory hallucinations of a command nature. During his vision, he was commanded to dig a deep pit. Whenever he stopped for breath, he was commanded to continue.
c) Delusional perception.
After hearing a sermon on the beatitudes, he had an overwhelming sense of urgency to change his life and pursue an alternative course. He did indeed change his life and remained committed to that change until his death.


The guy was a mess and the church loved it.

1/25/2015 12:06:11 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

sail_dancer
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,647)
Saint Petersburg, FL
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Quote from iyamwutiyam:
The guy was a mess and the church loved it.




Peace

1/25/2015 6:13:25 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 
clarencec
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Quote from iyamwutiyam:
They're admitting that but they are saying God is using the mentally ill to communicate his magical message. This something you would expect a mentally ill to say. It really boils down to an imaginary being communicating to humanity through the mentally ill. Well, why not? Mentally ill people have hallucinations and delusions. It seems like mental illness is a positive framework for religion. I couldn't agree more.

What the Church of England seem to be doing is recognizing that mental health issues are part and parcel of the human experience. Your approach is to demonize and stigmatize the mentally ill with "lol" flags and "crazy" emoticons, but the Anglican church have advanced enough from this knuckle dragging position not to do so. IMO, the Anglican church's position tends to increase optimism for the future of the human race. The lesson I get from the article is that there's nothing about being religious that prevents a person from holding mature and advanced opinions about mental illness. I can't really say the same about your combination of anti-theism and the demonization of mental illness. Your attitude seems to be to emphasize the otherness of the mentally ill and berate them in a witch hunt fashion. I understand that you come from a culture with an identifiable tradition of witch hunts though, what with the anti-communist witch hunts of the 1950's, so your attitude would perhaps be understandable to a student of psychohistory.

1/25/2015 8:39:04 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

isna_la_wica
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Quote from clarencec:
What the Church of England seem to be doing is recognizing that mental health issues are part and parcel of the human experience. Your approach is to demonize and stigmatize the mentally ill with "lol" flags and "crazy" emoticons, but the Anglican church have advanced enough from this knuckle dragging position not to do so. IMO, the Anglican church's position tends to increase optimism for the future of the human race. The lesson I get from the article is that there's nothing about being religious that prevents a person from holding mature and advanced opinions about mental illness. I can't really say the same about your combination of anti-theism and the demonization of mental illness. Your attitude seems to be to emphasize the otherness of the mentally ill and berate them in a witch hunt fashion. I understand that you come from a culture with an identifiable tradition of witch hunts though, what with the anti-communist witch hunts of the 1950's, so your attitude would perhaps be understandable to a student of psychohistory.


Quite right.


I wonder how paranoia about every one different from your self, like Joseph McCarthy and iamwutiam displays, would be diagnosed?

1/25/2015 9:11:01 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

iyamwutiyam
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Quote from clarencec:
What the Church of England seem to be doing is recognizing that mental health issues are part and parcel of the human experience. Your approach is to demonize and stigmatize the mentally ill with "lol" flags and "crazy" emoticons, but the Anglican church have advanced enough from this knuckle dragging position not to do so. IMO, the Anglican church's position tends to increase optimism for the future of the human race.
I have to agree what the church is doing presents optimism for the human race by admitting biblical characters are mentally ill. If I apply and is because links between mental illness and religiosity are becoming very well recognized and acknowledged. Many of the biblical characters are depicted as very mentally disturbed people. I think the church finds these kinds of people attractive whether from the bible or real life for reasons that should be discussed.

The lesson I get from the article is that there's nothing about being religious that prevents a person from holding mature and advanced opinions about mental illness.
Absolutely because its mature and advanced to recognize Jesus was mentally ill and basically all the figures in the bible were mentally ill.

....it suggests John the Baptist, St Paul, St Francis and other figures from the Bible may all have been mentally ill.

But this isn't complete. The church doesn't explain why these figures were mentally ill. For example. They haven't addressed Jesus' morose and megalomaniac narcissistic personality, paranoia, cruelty to animals or bigotry but its a good start.

1/25/2015 10:28:39 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 
clarencec
Over 2,000 Posts (3,667)
South Yorkshire
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.
Quote from iyamwutiyam:
I have to agree what the church is doing presents optimism for the human race by admitting biblical characters are mentally ill.

Too crude an appraisal. The portrayal of king Saul in 1 Samuel may invite a modern contention that he was been suffering from a diagnosable mental disorder, and a report that the family of Jesus thought him "out of his mind" from Mark 3:21 gives food for thought, but a simplistic conclusion that "biblical characters are mentally ill" rendered for crude purposes of denigrating a whole corpus of human knowledge and endeavour doesn't really fly. A truer picture might be that the Bible is unsuitable reading material for children, contains unstinting psychological realism and doesn't pull its punches in its portrayal of the human condition, as Hebrew Bible scholar Christine Hayes observes in an article from the Huff Post that I find enlightening.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christine-hayes/5-misconceptions-about-the-bible_b_2173965.html

Quote from clarencec:
The lesson I get from the article is that there's nothing about being religious that prevents a person from holding mature and advanced opinions about mental illness.

Quote from iyamwutiyam:
Absolutely because its mature and advanced to recognize Jesus was mentally ill and basically all the figures in the bible were mentally ill.

Again, you're making a crude statement that isn't supported by the source material. We don't know if Jesus or other biblical characters were mentally ill or what this would mean if they were. Probably not a bunch of "lol" flags and "crazy" emoticons demonizing mental illness I'm thinking.

Quote from iyamwutiyam:
....it suggests John the Baptist, St Paul, St Francis and other figures from the Bible may all have been mentally ill.

But this isn't complete. The church doesn't explain why these figures were mentally ill. For example. They haven't addressed Jesus' morose and megalomaniac narcissistic personality, paranoia, cruelty to animals or bigotry but its a good start.

You're pulling all those diagnoses out of your arse. "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" as they say. You've acquired a little knowledge of human psychology, only unfortunately your attitude towards the topic you're critiquing is one of irrational and unrelenting scorn and derision, so your psychologizing is inevitably destined to be coloured by this. What would help is if you read some NT scholarship and gained a grasp of the likely explanations of those scriptures on which your amateur diagnoses are based. We both know this isn't going to happen though. We've even discussed possible explanations of the pig drowning "cruelty to animals" episode and other issues in past threads but seemingly to no avail. You've got your cartoon version of Jesus and your fake psychiatry worldview and you're happy with that.



[Edited 1/25/2015 10:29:17 PM ]

1/26/2015 4:33:42 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

sail_dancer
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Saint Petersburg, FL
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Quote from clarencec:
You're pulling all those diagnoses out of your arse.


And you are pulling your arguments ..... against the evidence of mental illness's role in religious history ..... out of your arse.

Let's face it ..... its is your opinion verses the opinions of qualified mental health professionals and the british christian clergy. It is quite evident that you hold yourself to be more qualified than the scientific and religious professionals presented in this thread ..... please explain why you feel that way.

Peace

1/26/2015 5:14:45 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

iyamwutiyam
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It does seem interesting that maarks and clarances lame and irrelevant arguments were that the psychiatrists weren't biblical scholars. Well, the Church of England should should be sufficient. They fully accept their savior and saints were mentally ill.

Considering what life was like 2000-3000 years ago without any knowledge or science to deal with mental illness. Psychopathology was quite common and we know it is today. No medication. No treatment. Lots of ignorance and superstition. Hallucinations and other aberrations were considered religious visions and special insight. These were powerful sources for religious inspiration. Religion finds its foundation in psychopathology. Ignorance in general is a foundation for religious beliefs. Faith has no evidence, no facts, no substance. This is a perfect recipe for a religion.

If Charles Manson was born 1000 years ago he would have been called Saint Charles. A very charismatic guy who wandered around finding strays who would follow him. A very Jesus like guy. He promised the world he could feed them from his garbage dump.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gg7ZyyvPKY



1/26/2015 5:36:05 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

sail_dancer
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Quote from iyamwutiyam:
Considering what life was like 2000-3000 years ago without any knowledge or science to deal with mental illness. Psychopathology was quite common and we know it is today. No medication. No treatment. Lots of ignorance and superstition. Hallucinations and other aberrations were considered religious visions and special insight. These were powerful sources for religious inspiration. Religion finds its foundation in psychopathology. Ignorance in general is a foundation for religious beliefs. Faith has no evidence, no facts, no substance. This is a perfect recipe for a religion.

If Charles Manson was born 1000 years ago he would have been called Saint Charles. A very charismatic guy who wandered around finding strays who would follow him. A very Jesus like guy. He promised the world he could feed them from his garbage dump.


Scary when you look at it in that way ..... and ..... more and more evidence points to its probability.

Peace

1/26/2015 5:54:57 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

iyamwutiyam
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Yeah scary. People we consider today as religious fanatics and extremists were normal people 500-2000 years ago. The average person had a 1st grade education and extremely superstitious. So basically religion today was built by illiterate bucolic yokels and slightly more intelligent maniacs with powerful personalities and killing power.

1/26/2015 6:22:43 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

turkalurk82
Over 1,000 Posts (1,071)
Godfrey, IL
35, joined Sep. 2014


Quote from sail_dancer:
And you are pulling your arguments ..... against the evidence of mental illness's role in religious history ..... out of your arse.

Let's face it ..... its is your opinion verses the opinions of qualified mental health professionals and the british christian clergy. It is quite evident that you hold yourself to be more qualified than the scientific and religious professionals presented in this thread ..... please explain why you feel that way.

Peace


Only a moron would buy into the claims made by iyam. Has there been psychological problems with historical religious figures? Since they we are all human, statistically speaking, it would be expected. However, to suggest that psychosis is the foundation for all religious experience, would be so absurd that you would have to have mental problems yourself to makes such a stupid suggestion. Futhermore, since normal behavior is correlated with the most popular portion of a bell curve distribution, then being deluded with faith(if thats what you want to call it) is obviously a normal part of human behavior, because atheism represents such a small portion of the population. Furthermore, the anti-theist position is far more rare than the average weak atheist position. So rare, that it can only represent an extreme or "abnormal" portion of the population. In other words, it seems hypocritical for an abnormal subgroup to suggest that another subgroup which falls into the normal spectrum, is abnormally deluded. Deluded, possibly, but obviously most religious people can only be deluded in a "normal" sense. For example, our vision is only an impression based on the information provided from photons that bounce off of an object which creates a "hallucination" in the mind that represents a visual object, but that visual representation is not the object itself. Its only a representation of that object based on the information provided by the photons that interacted with the object before coming into contact with your retina. So, in a sense, it is delusional to assume we see actual objects, when, in fact, we can only "see" the light reflecting off of these objects. Therefore, some "delusions" can serve functional purposes.



[Edited 1/26/2015 6:23:37 AM ]

1/26/2015 6:47:59 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

iyamwutiyam
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Therefore, some "delusions" can serve functional purposes.

I'm sure most delusions serve a functional purpose for you.

1/26/2015 6:58:29 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

sail_dancer
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Saint Petersburg, FL
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Quote from turkalurk82:
Only a moron would buy into the claims made by iyam.


It is you who is the moron.

The diagnosis of the biblical characters and/or christian leaders/saints of ancient times ..... were not done by Iyam ..... nor were the admissions of the british clergy that their christian biblical characters presented in the study were probably true ..... made by Iyam.

If you disagree with the study ..... that's fine ..... you are titled to your OPINION ..... that's right OPINION ..... which is against the opinions of licensed mental health and British christian professionals.

Is your ego so inflated that you think your OPINION should be taken over the opinions of professionals? If so maybe you and Clarence should have your OPINIONS published in a recognized scientific journal ..... anything short of that would just substantiate my claims against your OPINIONS.

So post all you want ..... but until you can show that your OPINIONS are more valid than those of the professionals presented in this thread ..... your OPINIONS can only be considered "hot air".

Do you really believe that the professional opinions presented in this thread are wrong and Clarence's opinion is right?

Or do you agree with the professional opinions ..... but do not appreciate how Iyam has presented them?

Peace

1/26/2015 7:03:58 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

turkalurk82
Over 1,000 Posts (1,071)
Godfrey, IL
35, joined Sep. 2014


Quote from iyamwutiyam:
I'm sure most delusions serve a functional purpose for you.
Its quite obvious they do for you as well. You sure seem blissfully ignorant. You may escape from the clutches of a sky god, but you can never escape the actuality of who you are as a person. You can hide in your subjective reality, but there is an actuality of every situation. You are a part of this objective reality regardless of who or what you think is responsible for its creation.

So, I use logic and reason to the best of my ability, but sometimes I don't have enough information available, yet must make a decision based on what is available to me. In these cases, I have no problem applying faith while maintaining a sense of reasonability. For example, without faith, I would never fall in love.



[Edited 1/26/2015 7:05:06 AM ]

1/26/2015 7:17:12 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

turkalurk82
Over 1,000 Posts (1,071)
Godfrey, IL
35, joined Sep. 2014


Quote from sail_dancer:
It is you who is the moron.

The diagnosis of the biblical characters and/or christian leaders/saints of ancient times ..... were not done by Iyam ..... nor were the admissions of the british clergy that their christian biblical characters presented in the study were probably true ..... made by Iyam.

If you disagree with the study ..... that's fine ..... you are titled to your OPINION ..... that's right OPINION ..... which is against the opinions of licensed mental health and British christian professionals.

Is your ego so inflated that you think your OPINION should be taken over the opinions of professionals? If so maybe you and Clarence should have your OPINIONS published in a recognized scientific journal ..... anything short of that would just substantiate my claims against your OPINIONS.

So post all you want ..... but until you can show that your OPINIONS are more valid than those of the professionals presented in this thread ..... your OPINIONS can only be considered "hot air".

Do you really believe that the professional opinions presented in this thread are wrong and Clarence's opinion is right?

Or do you agree with the professional opinions ..... but do not appreciate how Iyam has presented them?

Peace


Haven't bothered to read any of the studies, because I can easily see how they are either being misrepresented, their findings influenced by biases that persuade a skewed perspective, or a little of both. It sounds lije a ridiculous study, so haven't even felt compelled to check it out. Feel the same way about kb's urantia book. Clarence makes some very valid points that aren't being countered with any reasonability. Clarence is one of the most reasonable people that posts here. I can say this, without actually sharing his viewpoint. Think about that for a moment. You have seen me side with people of all different kinds of perspectives. Why, because I can acknowledge reasonability when I observe it, because it is important for me to b as objective as possible. Thats a common theme that seems lacking in your stance, objectivity. Your perspective seems stained with an antireligious bias that filters your interpretations of language.



[Edited 1/26/2015 7:19:12 AM ]

1/26/2015 7:17:31 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

iyamwutiyam
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Quote from turkalurk82:
Its quite obvious they do for you as well. You sure seem blissfully ignorant. You may escape from the clutches of a sky god, but you can never escape the actuality of who you are as a person. You can hide in your subjective reality, but there is an actuality of every situation. You are a part of this objective reality regardless of who or what you think is responsible for its creation.
No relevance to the topic but basically all you're saying is iyamwutiyam.

Your pleas are actually avoiding the topic of why the church is willing to admit Jesus and all the rest were mentally ill. This begs the question. If these people were mentally ill then what effect did their particular disorders have in the formation of religion? A great deal obviously. Deal with it.

So, I use logic and reason to the best of my ability, but sometimes I don't have enough information available, yet must make a decision based on what is available to me. In these cases, I have no problem applying faith while maintaining a sense of reasonability. For example, without faith, I would never fall in love.
Appeals to emotion. Love is not logical so you need faith. OK I get it. I've heard it before. Dysfunctional relationships are poorly constructed and based on faith. Faith is the most shallowest of experiences because by definition its unexamined.

1/26/2015 7:26:31 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

turkalurk82
Over 1,000 Posts (1,071)
Godfrey, IL
35, joined Sep. 2014


Quote from iyamwutiyam:
Appeals to emotion. Love is not logical so you need faith. OK I get it. I've heard it before. Dysfunctional relationships are poorly constructed and based on faith. Faith is the most shallowest of experiences because by definition its unexamined.


Right, if you don't believe you ever put faith into something, then you are a delusional fool. You seem to use faith much more than I do. Its rare to see anyone have as much faith in their own bullshit as you do. I only see that in the fundie extremists. Either they are extremely dogmatic in their beliefs about god, or they are just as faithful that there is absolutely nothing greater than themselves. What they have in common, usually involves egoism.

1/26/2015 7:34:10 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

iyamwutiyam
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Try to read carefully. Faith is the most shallowest of experiences because by definition its unexamined. Religious loons dwell in a shallow pool of delusion.

Speaking of unexamined. You failed at dealing with the topic about the Church of England and reading the article in The Journal of Neuropsychiatry and Clinical Neurosciences.

1/26/2015 7:41:46 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

turkalurk82
Over 1,000 Posts (1,071)
Godfrey, IL
35, joined Sep. 2014


Quote from iyamwutiyam:
Try to read carefully. Faith is the most shallowest of experiences because by definition its unexamined. Religious loons dwell in a shallow pool of delusion.

Speaking of unexamined. You failed at dealing with the topic about the Church of England and reading the article in The Journal of Neuropsychiatry and Clinical Neurosciences.


I have no stake in what the church of anything says. It means very little to me. I would probably agree with many things the study suggests. Its obvious that some religious figures were insane. It has no bearing on my beliefs. I am only commenting on your absurd conclusions based on your understanding of those studies, and also commenting on the way you have argued your points fallaciously with Clarence. You have very little credibility with me, because of my observations about your reasoning methods.

1/26/2015 7:42:35 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

sail_dancer
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,647)
Saint Petersburg, FL
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Quote from turkalurk82:
Haven't bothered to read any of the studies, because I can easily see how they are either being misrepresented, their findings influenced by biases that persuade a skewed perspective, or a little of both.


How can you post in a thread and give opinions on an article and psychiatric study to you haven't even taken the time to read and research them?

This means that everything you posted was done with no knowledge of what the article and study contained.

What credibility can your posts have?

You are nothing but an ignorant religious troll.

Peace

1/26/2015 7:48:57 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

turkalurk82
Over 1,000 Posts (1,071)
Godfrey, IL
35, joined Sep. 2014


Quote from sail_dancer:
How can you post in a thread and give opinions on an article and psychiatric study to you haven't even taken the time to read and research them?

This means that everything you posted was done with no knowledge of what the article and study contained.

What credibility can your posts have?

You are nothing but an ignorant religious troll.

Peace


I don't need to read the source material, I am making observations based on the arguments those studies supposedly support. I have not criticized the studies hav I? I am simply criticizing your use of the studies to support your biased agenda which seems that you intend to belittle people who don't believe the way you do.

1/26/2015 7:53:05 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

sail_dancer
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70, joined Apr. 2010


Quote from turkalurk82:
I would probably agree with many things the study suggests. Its obvious that some religious figures were insane.


How can you make a point like that when you have no idea what the study says ..... you never took the time to read it.

..... I am only commenting on your absurd conclusions based on your understanding of those studies .....


How can you determine that Iyam's conclusions on the studies are absurd? ..... you have no idea what the study findings were or what they were based on ..... you have to read a study to make such a conclusion.

As I said before you are just an ignorant christian troll.

Peace

1/26/2015 7:57:47 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

iyamwutiyam
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Quote from turkalurk82:
I don't need to read the source material, I am making observations based on the arguments those studies supposedly support. I have not criticized the studies hav I? I am simply criticizing your use of the studies to support your biased agenda which seems that you intend to belittle people who don't believe the way you do.


Therefore, some "delusions" can serve functional purposes.


1/26/2015 8:08:34 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

turkalurk82
Over 1,000 Posts (1,071)
Godfrey, IL
35, joined Sep. 2014


Quote from iyamwutiyam:
so, you call me a troll, then what is iyam? Can you not see the childishness in his approach? This is the guy you choose to side with consistently?

1/26/2015 8:09:29 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

iyamwutiyam
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Quoting you bothers you.

1/26/2015 8:11:54 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

sail_dancer
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,647)
Saint Petersburg, FL
70, joined Apr. 2010


Quote from turkalurk82:
I don't need to read the source material, I am making observations based on the arguments those studies supposedly support. I have not criticized the studies hav I? I am simply criticizing your use of the studies to support your biased agenda which seems that you intend to belittle people who don't believe the way you do.


Without reading the studies ..... you cannot determine whether the studies agree or disagree with my opinions.

So again you are just posting "hot air".

And you have made statements about me that are uncalled for. Please post quotes of statements I have made that supports your claim that I am using the studies to support a biased agenda that I intend to belittle people with ..... I won't hold my breath since there are none.

You are just attacking a christian clergy's support of a study, simply because you do not like the subject of the study ..... a study you have not read.

Why do you keep trolling these threads?

Peace

1/26/2015 8:13:43 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

iyamwutiyam
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He evaluates the studies based on faith.

1/26/2015 8:14:53 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

turkalurk82
Over 1,000 Posts (1,071)
Godfrey, IL
35, joined Sep. 2014


Quote from iyamwutiyam:
Quoting you bothers you.
nah, just your childish ways of manipulating what people say by distorting context. Its a very common trait of a malignant narcissist. I am not being facetious, research it. I seriously think you have psychological problems. No joke.



[Edited 1/26/2015 8:15:09 AM ]

1/26/2015 8:43:54 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 
clarencec
Over 2,000 Posts (3,667)
South Yorkshire
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The full sermon referred to in the OP for anyone who's interested.

                                                                   Sermon suggestion

By Revd Eva McIntyre

Many of the people we read about in Bible stories might today be considered as having mental health issues. For example; Would Jesus’ family maybe on occasion have said, “Cousin John is a bit odd, bless him!” when John the Baptist took to his eccentric style of life? It has long been thought that King Saul, in the books of Samuel, was displaying mood swings that suggest he had bi-polar disorder and some think that St Paul’s Damascus Road experience was the result of some sort of breakdown or psychotic episode. Even Jesus was not immune to accusations about his mental health – there is a story in the gospel that tells of his mother and siblings attempting to take him home because they are afraid that he has lost his mind. Many of the stories of the Saints, too, have led people to discuss their mental health – for example; was Saint Francis suffering from a mental health title? (You may wish to use biblical quotations in this section).

Some may find these suggestions disturbing or offensive even. Perhaps we need to ask why it would be so terrible to think that some of our most inspirational forebears might have experienced mental health illness! Do we mistakenly believe that God cannot or will not work through people with mental health illness? Do we transfer our judgment of the capacity of others onto God? Do we think that mental illness is one condition that makes people less able to do God’s work, more unlikely to be able to articulate spiritual truth, and unable to participate meaningfully in worship? Who do we think ‘these people’ are? Statistics show us that one in four people suffer from mental health illness during their lives. That figure is based on those who go to the GP for help; the true figure is likely to be even higher. That means; in a congregation of 50 people, at least 12 people will have experienced or be experiencing mental health issues. That includes the clergy and ministers, too! These conditions are part of human living; they are often caused by life experience such as grief, trauma and loss. These are things that happen to all of us and none of us should have to suffer in silence for fear of what others might think or say!

[Pre- arrange for members of the congregation to read out the quotes from the celebrity postcards at this point http://www.time-to-change.org.uk/shop/celebrityposters-and postcards and follow this up with the stories of people who are not famous from the poster range http://www.time-to-change.org.uk/shop/miscellaneous If you have your own story to share or a member of the congregation is prepared (and emotionally robust enough) to share a personal story, it can be used here.]

Mental illnesses are real conditions that occur in real people – they are not a sign of weakness or an excuse; they involve real suffering and need understanding and appropriate responses, just like any other condition we might have. Those who suffer don’t need people saying ‘pull yourself together’ or ‘I know just how you feel’. What is needed is understanding and a listening ear – and not being talked to as though you are only the illness and not a whole human being. A problem shared can be a problem halved if the friend is actually listening.

If we are following the teaching of Jesus who met people where they were in life and reached out to them in love and healing, Churches will be places of welcome, friendship and acceptance. It is our ministry to educate ourselves about mental health and to make sure that our welcome is appropriate and that no-one who enters our church experiences prejudice or feels stigmatized.
http://www.time-to-change.org.uk/sites/default/files/General%20Synod%20pack.pdf

1/26/2015 8:47:17 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

turkalurk82
Over 1,000 Posts (1,071)
Godfrey, IL
35, joined Sep. 2014


Quote from sail_dancer:
Without reading the studies ..... you cannot determine whether the studies agree or disagree with my opinions.

So again you are just posting "hot air".

And you have made statements about me that are uncalled for. Please post quotes of statements I have made that supports your claim that I am using the studies to support a biased agenda that I intend to belittle people with ..... I won't hold my breath since there are none.

You are just attacking a christian clergy's support of a study, simply because you do not like the subject of the study ..... a study you have not read.

Why do you keep trolling these threads?

Peace

Where have I attacked the study? I said if you agree with iyam's conclusion that all religious people suffer from mental illness, then you are a moron. I don't need to read the study to comment on asinine irrational statements. Furthermore, attempting to diagnose possibly fictitious character in terms of mental defect, just seems like a waste of time. I wouldn't be interested in a book that psychoanalyzed the characters of the xmen as having delusions of grandeur and hallucinations of being mutant. It would seem pointless and stupid. Ya know, I wouldn't doubt there are people who think mutants like the xmen may exist. I would have no problem admitting that it may be possible, but is unlikely. I wouldn't go around calling them stupid and mentally ill. Although, I am sure that some people who believe such things, could be prone to mental illness. Now, the more obsessed he appears with respect to overlooking evidence to the contrary, and the more extroadinary his claims are, the more suspicious I may be of their mental facilities, but, as long as they weren't being hostile or aggressive about it, I wouldn't feel the need to voice my judgements.

1/26/2015 8:57:46 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

rufftreasure
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (19,220)
Fairmont, MN
62, joined Jun. 2014


Quote from turkalurk82:
nah, just your childish ways of manipulating what people say by distorting context. Its a very common trait of a malignant narcissist. I am not being facetious, research it. I seriously think you have psychological problems. No joke.


Yes, and he uses classic methods, such as projecting to side step the focus and attention from himself.

1/26/2015 9:34:43 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

sail_dancer
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,647)
Saint Petersburg, FL
70, joined Apr. 2010


Quote from turkalurk82:
Where have I attacked the study? I said if you agree with iyam's conclusion that all religious people suffer from mental illness, then you are a moron. I don't need to read the study to comment on asinine irrational statements.



You obviously have not read my posts either ..... I have never claimed that all religious people suffer from mental illness ..... I have claimed that there are direct ties between religions and mental illness. I have also suggested that ..... christians who claim to have carried on conversations with god/Jesus or have met/touched god/Jesus in this physical world ..... should consult with a licensed mental health professional.

So stop making claims about me that you cannot back up.

You are nothing but a troll.

Peace

1/26/2015 9:54:20 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

turkalurk82
Over 1,000 Posts (1,071)
Godfrey, IL
35, joined Sep. 2014


Quote from sail_dancer:


You obviously have not read my posts either ..... I have never claimed that all religious people suffer from mental illness ..... I have claimed that there are direct ties between religions and mental illness. I have also suggested that ..... christians who claim to have carried on conversations with god/Jesus or have met/touched god/Jesus in this physical world ..... should consult with a licensed mental health professional.

So stop making claims about me that you cannot back up.

You are nothing but a troll.

Peace


You are the one that is being deceptive about what others claim. I said that, "Only a moron would buy into the claims made by iyam."

You responded with, "It is you who is the moron." Later, I explained what these assanine claims were, and that you have supported his stupidity. If this is not the case, then I am glad to hear it. Because it would be stupid to downplay the religious experience as nothing other than "crazy talk." So, I am glad that this is not your intention.

1/26/2015 10:55:13 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 
clarencec
Over 2,000 Posts (3,667)
South Yorkshire
United Kingdom
60, joined Oct. 2008


.
Quote from sail_dancer:
I have claimed that there are direct ties between religions and mental illness.

Too vague. Given that one in four people suffer from mental illness at some time in their lives, there are direct links between being human and mental illness. Which is what the author of the sermon suggestion in the OP is arguing.

I have also suggested that ..... christians who claim to have carried on conversations with god/Jesus or have met/touched god/Jesus in this physical world ..... should consult with a licensed mental health professional.

But you haven't yet offered to pay for them to have a psychiatric assessment. It would be a nice gesture I think. Perhaps you could allow them to recuperate on your boat too. That ought to be therapeutic.

1/26/2015 12:24:11 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

turkalurk82
Over 1,000 Posts (1,071)
Godfrey, IL
35, joined Sep. 2014


Quote from sail_dancer:
How can you determine that Iyam's conclusions on the studies are absurd? ..... you have no idea what the study findings were or what they were based on ..... you have to read a study to make such a conclusion.

As I said before you are just an ignorant christian troll.

Peace


Oh yeah, I forgot to address the christian troll claim. Another example of your irrationality. How do you equate my beliefs with Christianity? Are you seriously that deluded? I also think you are confused at what people mean by an internet troll. I'm not sure if you are trying to use the term loosely, or just being a troll.

From wiki:

In Internet slang, a troll (/'tro?l/, /'tr?l/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4]


Considering the rules about being respectful and tolerant of the different religious stances, what would you say your intentions are when you post your threads? Do you not see the irony in your accusation?



[Edited 1/26/2015 12:25:02 PM ]

1/26/2015 1:10:55 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

iyamwutiyam
Over 7,500 Posts!! (9,888)
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Quote from turkalurk82:
Where have I attacked the study? I said if you agree with iyam's conclusion that all religious people suffer from mental illness, then you are a moron. I don't need to read the study to comment on asinine irrational statements. Furthermore, attempting to diagnose possibly fictitious character in terms of mental defect, just seems like a waste of time.
So you don't think Homer Simpson or Al Bundy have a few problems.

I wouldn't be interested in a book that psychoanalyzed the characters of the xmen as having delusions of grandeur and hallucinations of being mutant. It would seem pointless and stupid.
X-men maybe but biblical characters are quite entertaining.

Ya know, I wouldn't doubt there are people who think mutants like the xmen may exist. I would have no problem admitting that it may be possible, but is unlikely. I wouldn't go around calling them stupid and mentally ill.
Because you have class.

Although, I am sure that some people who believe such things, could be prone to mental illness.
Mentally ill because they believe in x-men. So you just wouldn't say anything, just think it.

Now, the more obsessed he appears with respect to overlooking evidence to the contrary, and the more extroadinary his claims are, the more suspicious I may be of their mental facilities, but, as long as they weren't being hostile or aggressive about it, I wouldn't feel the need to voice my judgements.
Kind of like when someone wears a toupee and flaunts it around as if it looks good.

1/26/2015 2:54:16 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness | Page 2 

turkalurk82
Over 1,000 Posts (1,071)
Godfrey, IL
35, joined Sep. 2014


"Kind of like when someone wears a toupee and flaunts it around as if it looks good."

right, and who am I to tell him it looks horrible? Now, if he wants to argue his toupee is better than real hair, I may disagree, but can still acknowledge that perhaps his beliefs about hair-transplantation are reasonable. He will obviously have a different take on it. It may not be real hair, but maybe its looks like a perfect head of hair. It would be easy for a guy that has never experinced balding, to argue that the natural head of hair is always superior, but when they start going bald, I would bet they'll start singing a different tune. They will be able to understand where the guy is coming from becaus now they can relate to it better. Doesn't mean I would always win the bet. Some guys prefer the bald look, and anything fake is stupid. "To each, their own is beautiful."

However, tell me how ugly mine is, and I will feel obliged to defend it, reasonably. I might want to return the favor of "construcive" criticism. If you want to persist in derailing the conversation into an exchange of insults, then I'm not afraid to go there. But, I do so with reluctance disappointment. I try to treat others as I feel they would want to be treated. If you belief in esp, then you might call me an empath. So, if someone is kind, I feel obligated to show them kindness. Heck, I usually feel this obligation even if they aren't kind. As long as they aren't a deuchebag. I have a tendency to deflect their negativity by mimicking it. This is my attempt to impose empathy when I see it is lacking in someone. I want you to feel the emotions that you inflict upon others. The problem is that sometimes those people seem to lack the ability to emphasize with any group that doesn't resemble the "their own." It doesn't matter how you explain it, these people can't be reasoned with. When I give them a taste of their own medicine, they seem to act delusional and oblivious as to their own behavior. I've always wondered if they are just pretending not to understand, they are in some kind of denial, or they simply lack the intellectual capacity to make the proper associations. I suppose there is little you can do for people that are trapped in their own BIASES!



[Edited 1/26/2015 2:57:04 PM ]