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1/22/2015 5:01:48 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

iyamwutiyam
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http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/341926/Jesus-Christ-may-have-suffered-from-mental-health-problems-claims-Church-of-England


....it suggests John the Baptist, St Paul, St Francis and other figures from the Bible may all have been mentally ill.
-----------------------------------
....It has long been thought that King Saul, in the books of Samuel, was displaying mood swings that suggest he had bi-polar disorder and some think that St Paul’s Damascus Road experience was the result of some sort of breakdown or psychotic episode.
-----------------------------------
....Even Jesus was not immune to accusations about his mental health: there is a story in the gospel that tells of his mother and siblings attempting to take him home because they are afraid that he has lost his mind.
-----------------------------------
....Many of the stories of the Saints, too, have led people to discuss their mental health. "For example was St Francis suffering from a mental health title?


Why is the Church of England embracing mental illness?

"Do we mistakenly believe that God cannot or will not work through people with mental health illness?

"Do we think that mental illness is one condition that makes people less able to do God’s work, more unlikely to be able to articulate spiritual truth, and unable to participate meaningfully in worship?

"Who do we think ‘these people’ are? Statistics show us that one in four people suffer from mental health illness during their lives.

"That figure is based on those who go to the GP for help; the true figure is likely to be even higher.

"That means in a congregation of 50 people, at least 12 people will have experienced or be experiencing mental health issues.






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1/22/2015 5:25:15 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

sail_dancer
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From the article:

Acknowledging how shocking these ideas might be, Ms McIntyre, a member of the General Synod, adds: "Some may find these suggestions disturbing or offensive even.

"Perhaps we need to ask why it would be so terrible to think that some of our most inspirational forebears might have experienced mental health illness.


It is nice to see that christian clergy is finally admitting that many of their biblical characters and saints might have been mentally ill ..... but fear not christians ..... Clarence will probably stand up for you with his normal arguments against this.

Dr Kamran Ahmed, of the Muslim Council of Britain, says: "Research has shown this is an area of particular need amongst Muslims."

He says this is due to "cultural and traditional beliefs", which can include people mistakenly believing they are possessed by the "Evil Eye" when in fact they are mentally ill.

He has written a leaflet with the Royal College of Psychiatrists that is being sent to mosques, explaining mental illness and urging people to seek professional medical help.


Its about time ..... I guess things are looking up to help those in need of professional care and not ignore them.

Peace

1/22/2015 5:42:22 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

iyamwutiyam
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Quote from sail_dancer:
....

It is nice to see that christian clergy is finally admitting that many of their biblical characters and saints might have been mentally ill ..... but fear not christians ..... Clarence will probably stand up for you with his normal arguments against this.
....


They're admitting that but they are saying God is using the mentally ill to communicate his magical message. This something you would expect a mentally ill to say. It really boils down to an imaginary being communicating to humanity through the mentally ill. Well, why not? Mentally ill people have hallucinations and delusions. It seems like mental illness is a positive framework for religion. I couldn't agree more.

1/22/2015 5:52:47 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

sail_dancer
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Quote from iyamwutiyam:
They're admitting that but they are saying God is using the mentally ill to communicate his magical message. This something you would expect a mentally ill to say. It really boils down to an imaginary being communicating to humanity through the mentally ill. Well, why not? Mentally ill people have hallucinations and delusions. It seems like mental illness is a positive framework for religion. I couldn't agree more.


I think its both ..... they want to admit to the mental illness claims against christian bible characters and saints ..... but they are also trying to save the nonsense dogma they have been selling humanity for all these years.

They are burning the candle at both ends ..... it will be interesting to see where it goes from here.

Peace

1/22/2015 6:15:39 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 
clarencec
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Quote from sail_dancer:
Clarence will probably stand up for you with his normal arguments against this.

I don't have a problem with the article's comments that one in four people suffer with mental illness at some point in their lives and therefore why can't God (if he exists) work through people with mental health problems. It seems commonsense to me. The only issue I have is with Yam's lame brained "Lol" flag attitude of stigmatizing mental illness like Christians used to stigmatize witchcraft. I guess it's a good thing that lynchings and burnings have fallen out of favour in modern times.



[Edited 1/22/2015 6:15:51 AM ]

1/22/2015 7:16:08 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 
clarencec
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Jus thinking, should Van Gogh's paintings be downgraded in both artistic merit and monetary value because Vincent indisputably suffered from mental illness? Based on the public esteem and monetary worth attached to Van Gogh's paintings, isn't it possible that people we crudely label as mentally ill based on a shortlist of observable symptoms are privy to experiences and insights denied the average "normal" person - otherwise why can't I paint Van Gogh quality megabuck worthy paintings, and don't even have the inclination to do so? Is what qualifies as a "lol flag" worthy grade of mental illness merely an arbitrarily decidable point on a sliding scale? For example, I have a sister who thinks she may be OCD because she's so fastidious about keeping her house clean. I visit her abode and just appreciate the considerably enhanced state of orderliness and cleanliness compared to my own home, but she evidently suffers mentally at some level to produce this impression. Is she nuts, and are her instincts wrong in any objective sense?

Not particularly expectant of an intelligent response..



[Edited 1/22/2015 7:18:35 AM ]

1/22/2015 7:18:55 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

iyamwutiyam
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Poor Clarance. You missed this part.
Perhaps we need to ask why it would be so terrible to think that some of our most inspirational forebears might have experienced mental health illness.


or
He says this is due to "cultural and traditional beliefs", which can include people mistakenly believing they are possessed by the "Evil Eye" when in fact they are mentally ill.




Since you never studied anything in this field despite it being available you should label yourself as lazy and lame brained.

1/22/2015 7:37:04 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 
clarencec
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Hmm. A further "lol" and "guffaw" emoticon and a misspelling of my forum handle not particularly indicative of a superior human intelligence at work.

Is there anyone out there with something interesting or meaningful to say about mental illness? If so, it's an open forum. Don't hold back. Nothing you contribute could be duller than Yam 'n' Sail's typical worn out habit of trying to conflate and stigmatize both mental illness and religiosity.

There. I've supported your dumbass thread by cutting through the BS and soliciting honest responses. You should be thanking me at this point.



[Edited 1/22/2015 7:38:36 AM ]

1/22/2015 7:38:08 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

iyamwutiyam
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I do have to say this might be a genius strategy by the church because we are all seeing so much analysis of the so called biblical characters and so called saints displaying symptoms of mental illness. Abraham, Jesus, Paul, Simeon of Styles and St Catherine of Siena.

When anyone says, "Hey, they were mentally ill" Rev Eva McIntyre would just say
John the Baptist, St Paul, St Francis and other figures from the Bible may all have been mentally ill.
...
Do we mistakenly believe that God cannot or will not work through people with mental health illness?


Of course this still fools the public into believing hallucinations and other psychosis are acceptable tools God uses to talk to humans but knowing how stupid and delusional religious loons are this tactic would probably work.


I'm thinking that leaders of the Church of England are serious Monty Python fans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4q6eaLn2mY




1/22/2015 9:58:56 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

iyamwutiyam
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Quote from clarencec:
Jus thinking,


should Van Gogh's paintings be downgraded in both artistic merit and monetary value because Vincent indisputably suffered from mental illness?
Artwork. Is that a religion? I haven't seen anyone praying to a painting but this could be a great alternative for art lovers.

Based on the public esteem and monetary worth attached to Van Gogh's paintings, isn't it possible that people we crudely label as mentally ill based on a shortlist of observable symptoms are privy to experiences and insights denied the average "normal" person - otherwise why can't I paint Van Gogh quality megabuck worthy paintings, and don't even have the inclination to do so?
Ramblings about an artist and your lack of artistic ability while believing mental illness is required for Van Gogh to be a great artist. Perhaps you could try channeling Van Gogh to bring out the creativity within yourself but then of course would be from a mental disorder. Can you guess which one?

Is what qualifies as a "lol flag" worthy grade of mental illness merely an arbitrarily decidable point on a sliding scale? For example, I have a sister who thinks she may be OCD because she's so fastidious about keeping her house clean.
Was she diagnosed with an OCD?

I visit her abode and just appreciate the considerably enhanced state of orderliness and cleanliness compared to my own home, but she evidently suffers mentally at some level to produce this impression. Is she nuts, and are her instincts wrong in any objective sense?
If she has OCD then yes if she's not taking proper action to seek help with a DISORDER. Obviously she suffers and this a deciding point in diagnosis and treatment. Just curious if she's also religious.

You seem to appreciate her cleanliness more than her seeking out mental health care to ease her suffering. So the question is, are you doing anything to help her or are you afraid if she gets help she'll become as sloppy as you? Why couldn't you then help her clean?

1/22/2015 10:16:48 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 
clarencec
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Ho hum. A bunch of dumb heckling not worth responding to. Again I'd appeal to any intelligent members out there who can raise the quality of this dull thread. Not the usual single line counter hecklers calling Yam a brain dead one track mind anti-religious moron please.

Good thread, potentially. What would be particularly good is a definition of what constitutes "normal". My limited knowledge of the psychiatric art informs me that "normal" is nothing more than a professional inability to find a suitable label to pin onto the thoughts of someone who happens to find their way onto a psychiatrist's couch. The diagnostic routine is a bit like quantum machanics and wave particle duality in that a person's submitting to observation almost guarantees they'll be diagnosed with something. Further precise definition would be useful, and I'm confident Yam 'n'' Sail will oblige, if only by posting more "guffaw" and "lol" emoticons.



[Edited 1/22/2015 10:19:37 AM ]

1/22/2015 10:22:02 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

sail_dancer
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Quote from clarencec:
Nothing you contribute could be duller than Yam 'n' Sail's typical worn out habit of trying to conflate and stigmatize both mental illness and religiosity.


Wow! ..... this from the person that kept arguing and giving irrational responses to my posts on the subject ..... yet doesn't post a word against the British christian clergy and the muslim council of Britain have to say.

So ..... British christian clergy have actually come out and confirmed my position about many bible characters and saints being mentally ill.

Yet ..... Clarence continues in his insistence that I am wrong to post anything that in any way links religion to mental illness. It seems that Clarence is the one with the problem. British christian clergy have accepted the fact that many biblical characters (Jesus included) were very likely mentally ill ..... but Clarence will not accept it ..... and he refuses to admit to being wrong in his past arguments with me about this.

Peace

1/22/2015 10:37:54 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 
clarencec
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.
Quote from sail_dancer:
Wow! ..... this from the person that kept arguing and giving irrational responses to my posts on the subject ..... yet doesn't post a word against the British christian clergy and the muslim council of Britain have to say.

I haven't posted anything irrational to my knowledge. And what would I have to say against British Christian clergy for observing possible involvement of mental illness in portrayals of biblical figures. I'm aware of the paranoid way Saul was portrayed in the Hebrew Bible, and also that the family of Jesus are recorded as thinking him crazy. I agree with the speculative article. Mental illness is almost certainly as much a feature in the ancient world as it is in modernity. So what?

So ..... British christian clergy have actually come out and confirmed my position about many bible characters and saints being mentally ill.

No, they're speculating. We don't know for certain which historical figures from antiquity are mentally ill without having them available in person to examine.

Yet ..... Clarence continues in his insistence that I am wrong to post anything that in any way links religion to mental illness. It seems that Clarence is the one with the problem. British christian clergy have accepted the fact that many biblical characters (Jesus included) were very likely mentally ill ..... but Clarence will not accept it ..... and he refuses to admit to being wrong in his past arguments with me about this.

Peace

British clergy have noted how religious accounts indicate the possibility that certain characters may have been mentally ill. I see no indication that they think this likely, but it has been admitted as a possibility. I'd like to know what you think this means. Are you saying that mentally ill people have no useful contribution to make to society, or that anything they come up with should be discounted as worthless on account of their mental illness, thinking of my Van Gogh example.



[Edited 1/22/2015 10:40:00 AM ]

1/22/2015 10:55:40 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 
mrhankchinaski
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Your calling Clarence irrational.

Come on Sail.

He's just calling you out on your bigoted BS.

1/22/2015 11:01:38 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

sail_dancer
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Quote from clarencec:
British clergy have noted how religious accounts indicate the possibility that certain characters may have been mentally ill. I see no indication that they think this likely, but it has been admitted as a possibility. I'd like to know what you think this means.


I think this means that you should question any claims by them especially claims related to making contact (visible or oral) with so called spiritual entities.


Are you saying that mentally ill people have no useful contribution to make to society, or that anything they come up with should be discounted as worthless on account of their mental illness, thinking of my Van Gogh example.


I never even hinted at anything like that in my posts.

Let's face it religious dogma makes claims on many things that cannot be substantiated ..... such as an invisible desert god ..... a man/god named Jesus ..... invisible angels and demons ..... and fictional places like heaven and hell.

These claims ..... if made by a mentally stable individual ..... are hard to accept.

Sooooooo ..... it should be much harder to accept such claims from christian biblical characters who are suspected of being mentally ill.

Why do you keep accusing me of things I have never said?

Peace

1/22/2015 12:29:24 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

iyamwutiyam
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Quote from clarencec:
I haven't posted anything irrational to my knowledge.
And what would I have to say against British Christian clergy for observing possible involvement of mental illness in portrayals of biblical figures. Because they're not psychiatrists.

I'm aware of the paranoid way Saul was portrayed in the Hebrew Bible, and also that the family of Jesus are recorded as thinking him crazy.
But noting about his stupendous hallucination he is so famous for.

I agree with the speculative article. Mental illness is almost certainly as much a feature in the ancient world as it is in modernity. So what?
So what is that you have no ability to see how one influences the other at all but you do honestly admit your limited knowledge on the subject.

British clergy have noted how religious accounts indicate the possibility that certain characters may have been mentally ill.
And yet wholly unqualified to make that diagnosis.

I see no indication that they think this likely, but it has been admitted as a possibility.
And why would they if the evidence doesn't exist? They do because the evidence is overwhelming which religious people try to avoid but can't when its overwhelming.

I'd like to know what you think this means. Are you saying that mentally ill people have no useful contribution to make to society, or that anything they come up with should be discounted as worthless on account of their mental illness, thinking of my Van Gogh example.
If you find hallucinations and cognitive disorders to be valuable to a society of pro-religiousity atheist apologetics then it would be valuable to you as well as the psychos being valuable to religious people who thrive on such aberrations of the mind.

1/22/2015 1:50:00 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

iyamwutiyam
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typo misquote fix.

I haven't posted anything irrational to my knowledge. And what would I have to say against British Christian clergy for observing possible involvement of mental illness in portrayals of biblical figures
Because they're not psychiatrists.

1/22/2015 6:10:53 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness 
clarencec
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.
Quote from clarencec:
British clergy have noted how religious accounts indicate the possibility that certain characters may have been mentally ill. I see no indication that they think this likely, but it has been admitted as a possibility. I'd like to know what you think this means.

Quote from sail_dancer:
I think this means that you should question any claims by them especially claims related to making contact (visible or oral) with so called spiritual entities.

I would be sceptical of anyone's claims to have made contact with so called spiritual entities whether they were suffering from a diagnosable mental illness or not. It probably wouldn't make any difference to my judgement of the issue, unless perhaps, they were frothing at the mouth, swallowing their tongue and claiming to see devils everywhere. I'd have to consider the full context in each individual instance.

Quote from clarencec:
Are you saying that mentally ill people have no useful contribution to make to society, or that anything they come up with should be discounted as worthless on account of their mental illness, thinking of my Van Gogh example.

Quote from sail_dancer:
I never even hinted at anything like that in my posts.

The predominant theme of yours and Yam's posts is to undermine the whole topic of religion and religious experience by using accusations of mental illness as a tool of ad hom in a kind of ignorant, crude and hamfisted witch hunt approach.

Look, you're doing it again here:

Quote from sail_dancer:
Let's face it religious dogma makes claims on many things that cannot be substantiated ..... such as an invisible desert god ..... a man/god named Jesus ..... invisible angels and demons ..... and fictional places like heaven and hell.

These claims ..... if made by a mentally stable individual ..... are hard to accept.

Millions of people believe in those religious concepts in one way or another and there's no scientific consensus that as a group they're mentally unstable. This approach to critiquing religion simply isn't valid, as has been stated before.

1/22/2015 6:20:39 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness 
clarencec
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*
Quote from iyamwutiyam:
If you find hallucinations and cognitive disorders to be valuable to a society of pro-religiousity atheist apologetics then it would be valuable to you as well as the psychos being valuable to religious people who thrive on such aberrations of the mind.

I hit the quote button and this is all I got. Your habit of splitting posts up into lots of quotes so's you can make insubstantial nitpicky quips in response to each line would be well served by preceding your post with an asterisk or any other keyboard character. This would make the whole thing quotable in one go without lots of fiddling about with the formatting, which frankly isn't worth it most of the time.

1/22/2015 7:02:53 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness 
clarencec
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.
Quote from iyamwutiyam:
If you find hallucinations and cognitive disorders to be valuable to a society of pro-religiousity atheist apologetics then it would be valuable to you as well as the psychos being valuable to religious people who thrive on such aberrations of the mind.

What does this convoluted and grammatically challenged sentence mean?

1/22/2015 9:05:54 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

iyamwutiyam
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Not "psychos" typo. Its "psychosis". I should stop using thumbs on my android.

In any case, your hobby as a pro-religious atheist apologetic DH messiah would find as much value as the religious nutter who thrives on such aberrations of the mind. Mental illness is only useful if it supports the dogma. For example a Christian hallucinating Buddha is useless. A Buddhist hallucinating Jesus would be useful.....to Christians. This provides a foundation for religious beliefs.



[Edited 1/22/2015 9:07:29 PM ]

1/23/2015 3:09:12 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

sail_dancer
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Quote from clarencec:
Look, you're doing it again here:



No! It is you changing what I am saying ..... why do you insist on doing this? ..... is it because you are in denial of what I actually did say?

Peace

1/23/2015 4:54:19 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

iyamwutiyam
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Clarence,

So if the Church of England is now selling the idea that Jesus and all the rest were mentally ill then how did they come up with that in the first place? What or who made them decide to do this? Was it a revelation? Did someone spike the sacred wine with truth serum? Did someone receive a vision and realized they were hallucinating? Did they read The Role of Psychotic Disorders in Religious History Considered in The Journal of Neuropsychiatry and Clinical Neurosciences?

You live there. Can't you just mosey on over and have an afternoon high tea chat with the clergy? Ask them why they're willing to believe "John the Baptist, St Paul, St Francis and other figures from the Bible may all have been mentally ill". What's going on over there?



1/23/2015 5:40:39 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

sail_dancer
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Quote from iyamwutiyam:
You live there. Can't you just mosey on over and have an afternoon high tea chat with the clergy? Ask them why they're willing to believe "John the Baptist, St Paul, St Francis and other figures from the Bible may all have been mentally ill". What's going on over there?



I think he should also mosey on down to the "Muslim Council of Britain" and get the islamic side story.

Peace

1/23/2015 12:14:28 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

isna_la_wica
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Jesus him self was accused of being mentally ill. I think it was in the book of Mark chapter 3, when he was accused of being controlled by " an unclean spirit", and his Mother and siblings tried to take him home, saying he was "beside him self".

But so what? I fail to see why recognizing mental illness as a legitimate illness some how negates a persons contribution to society.

Robin Williams suffered from depression, does that some how take away from his genius at performing comedy?

Abe Lincoln suffered from severe depression, does that mean he was not a great leader and we have to ignore what he accomplished?

One can simply google, famous people who had, or have, one form of mental illness or another, and one can see how many of the famous have suffered from one form or another of it, to one degree or another. The list will also include Atheists as well, not that it matters, and not that it takes away from what they accomplish either.

There are also many forms of it. It does not mean all who suffer from it, are delusional, and neither does it mean that some that might be prone to delusional disorder have hallucinations either.

I attend an Anglican church sometimes, and yes they welcome many who suffer from from mental illness. One chap in particular, I know, lives like a homeless person , attends the soup kitchen, talks to him self sometimes. I know he is actually quite well off, and have talked with him many times. Yes, he has his moments where he is not very clear. But when clarity visits him? He is one of the most intelligent persons I have ever met. So, I am supposed to throw out what he says, because he has dark periods?

The Church of England is simply recognizing facts. And also that many talented people, have suffered from one form or another.

I had a family member who suffered, and I wish I had learned more about this before her death. It is a regret of mine. And looking back at some of her thoughts? I marvel at how clear her thinking was at times, but like an idiot I ignored what she said at the time.

1/23/2015 12:28:19 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

sail_dancer
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Quote from isna_la_wica:
Jesus him self was accused of being mentally ill. I think it was in the book of Mark chapter 3, when he was accused of being controlled by " an unclean spirit", and his Mother and siblings tried to take him home, saying he was "beside him self".

But so what? I fail to see why recognizing mental illness as a legitimate illness some how negates a persons contribution to society.

Robin Williams suffered from depression, does that some how take away from his genius at performing comedy?

Abe Lincoln suffered from severe depression, does that mean he was not a great leader and we have to ignore what he accomplished?

One can simply google, famous people who had, or have, one form of mental illness or another, and one can see how many of the famous have suffered from one form or another of it, to one degree or another. The list will also include Atheists as well, not that it matters, and not that it takes away from what they accomplish either.

There are also many forms of it. It does not mean all who suffer from it, are delusional, and neither does it mean that some that might be prone to delusional disorder have hallucinations either.

I attend an Anglican church sometimes, and yes they welcome many who suffer from from mental illness. One chap in particular, I know, lives like a homeless person , attends the soup kitchen, talks to him self sometimes. I know he is actually quite well off, and have talked with him many times. Yes, he has his moments where he is not very clear. But when clarity visits him? He is one of the most intelligent persons I have ever met. So, I am supposed to throw out what he says, because he has dark periods?

The Church of England is simply recognizing facts. And also that many talented people, have suffered from one form or another.

I had a family member who suffered, and I wish I had learned more about this before her death. It is a regret of mine. And looking back at some of her thoughts? I marvel at how clear her thinking was at times, but like an idiot I ignored what she said at the time.


I agree with you for the most part.

Where we may differ is that I feel it is important that people know that Paul is thought to have been delusional ..... if this is correct ..... shouldn't his claim of an encounter with Jesus be questioned? The mental state of religious characters that set forth religious beliefs ..... is very important ..... and should cause claims made by Paul (especially mystical claims) to be well scrutinized.

Peace

1/23/2015 12:48:11 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

isna_la_wica
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Quote from sail_dancer:
I agree with you for the most part.

Where we may differ is that I feel it is important that people know that Paul is thought to have been delusional ..... if this is correct ..... shouldn't his claim of an encounter with Jesus be questioned? The mental state of religious characters that set forth religious beliefs ..... is very important ..... and should cause claims made by Paul (especially mystical claims) to be well scrutinized.

Peace


Sure, in fact I do look closer at Paul because I know he faced inner demons .In fact, I think he struggled with another issue big time, but will not voice that here.

But does that mean, I throw every thing he said out?

Not at all,in fact, I end up taking what he contributed even more seriously.

He was an extreme Religious fanatic. Kinda like the Taliban type we see today. Legalistic to the point, he wanted those who failed to follow his religion stoned to death.

But he went from being that, to the one most prone to being anti religious and free of the law. Why the abrupt change of heart? Why did his "dark night of the soul", change him so much and in such a drastic way?

That journey he took, enhances what the Scripture said about the teachings of Jesus. And maybe one that had never been where Paul had been, would never have understood the deeper meanings of the teachings.

I joke about about what I think are crazy theories my self. The end timers stuff, Jack Van Impe/ Hal Lyndon/ Tim LaHaye / I think are crazy theories not in scripture. In fact, I ran a spoof on it this morning over at the Lions Den.

But I do not think that those that follow these what I think are "crack pot theories", are mentally ill. I think they are ignorant of history, I think they read stuff into scripture that is not there, and I think they make mountains out of mole hills to feed their concepts, but that does not mean they have mental illness.

Damage done to Christianity, by so many of these false prophets, blows my mind. But they are not mentally ill. They have created a industry, and those that follow it want to read what they say into scripture.

I think CS Lewis suffered from depression at times, and if any thing, it made him more aware of his spiritual side.

I would take what CS Lewis said, or Paul, any day over the rational and "sane" types who make an industry out of out right crack pot theories.

1/23/2015 1:13:28 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

sail_dancer
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@ Isna,

I don't agree with your views on Paul ..... but if it floats your boat

I also do not consider everyone that believes in christian dogma to be crazy or mentally ill.

I do believe that the mentally ill help to contribute to the nonsense claims made by christianity ..... people insisting that they have had conversations with the christian god or actually met him in person ..... reinforce weaker minded members' infatuation in christianity's claims.

I am still of a firm belief that christianity and the other religions that worship the god of Abraham are dangerous to humankind ..... and that peace will never exist on this small blue marble we live on as long as religions like them exist.

Peace

1/23/2015 1:28:25 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness 
clarencec
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Quote from sail_dancer:
I agree with you for the most part.

Where we may differ is that I feel it is important that people know that Paul is thought to have been delusional ..... if this is correct ..... shouldn't his claim of an encounter with Jesus be questioned?

Unlike other apostles of Jesus, Paul never met him in the flesh, and may resultantly have felt a sense of inferiority in this regard. In his book "Jesus: A Very Jewish Myth", R.G. Price suggests Paul may have surmounted these feelings by drawing on a literary technique common to apocalyptic authors and lending himself apostolic authority by claiming to have had a vision of the risen Jesus. The same sort of technique is used in the book of Daniel, where a fictional prophet based on an ancient mythical figure has visions explained to him by the angel Gabriel. It's a powerful technique. Many modern fundamentalists lap up Daniel's "visions" and believe they're all about present day politics, even though the book is a late work, written circa 164BCE that recounts what was known past history at time of writing. Given the strong possibility that Paul was using this literary device, it is quite impossible to diagnose him as suffering from hallucinations based solely on his writings. I'm afraid psychoanalyzing Paul with any degree of accuracy would have to be a Doctor Who job.

                              

1/23/2015 1:39:30 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

isna_la_wica
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Quote from sail_dancer:
@ Isna,

I don't agree with your views on Paul ..... but if it floats your boat

I also do not consider everyone that believes in christian dogma to be crazy or mentally ill.

I do believe that the mentally ill help to contribute to the nonsense claims made by christianity ..... people insisting that they have had conversations with the christian god or actually met him in person ..... reinforce weaker minded members' infatuation in christianity's claims.

I am still of a firm belief that christianity and the other religions that worship the god of Abraham are dangerous to humankind ..... and that peace will never exist on this small blue marble we live on as long as religions like them exist.

Peace


Can Religion be dangerous? You betcha. Tim Mcvey is a prime example, David Koresh, Jeff Ludgren are examples. I really am concerned about some of the Tea Party types, trying to enforce an equivalent of Sharia law, based on what they call are "Christian values".

But I fail to see how most that partake in their faith in peace with others, tolerating those they disagree with, will lead to extremist behavior that threatens the world.

Dangerous extremism can occur with out religion. If you did away with religion today, do you think that those that support ISIS for example, would become peace loving citizens? Remember extremists exist in Politics as well. A fanatic is a fanatic, take awy one out let, they will find another, it is their nature.

Ever hear of the British Free Corps ? How about the SS-Standarte Kurt Eggers ?

The first was a Nazi SS unit, made up of Brit and common wealth volunters , who found their way to Germany to fight for Hitler, the second was the SS unit made up of Americans. You can see the list of many other units made up of citizens of countries that were fighting German here

:Foreign SS units - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS_foreign_volunteers_and_conscripts

My point is, thousands went to fight for Nazi Germany just like we have those in our society running away to engage in Jihad today. And Religion was not a factor in that war. Some are attracted to being dangerous and muder, religion / politics, is just an excuse is all.

1/23/2015 4:19:34 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

iyamwutiyam
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Quote from isna_la_wica:
Jesus him self was accused of being mentally ill.
What we today call mentally ill. Back then it was just being possessed by the devil which only enhances beliefs in superstition. Mental illness back then then in this way provided a foundation for religious delusions.

I think it was in the book of Mark chapter 3, when he was accused of being controlled by " an unclean spirit", and his Mother and siblings tried to take him home, saying he was "beside him self".
This is a good example of superstition. Someone acting strangely was believed to have been controlled by an imaginary being.

But so what? I fail to see why recognizing mental illness as a legitimate illness some how negates a persons contribution to society.
Depends on the mental illness. The term mental illness is too vague. There are too many to consider.

Robin Williams suffered from depression, does that some how take away from his genius at performing comedy?
Depression isn't psychosis or schizophrenia. It isn't temporal lobe epilepsy or a parietal tumor. Depression did make Robin Williams kill himself. Jesus essentially did the same thing in a different way. Suicide by cop.

Abe Lincoln suffered from severe depression, does that mean he was not a great leader and we have to ignore what he accomplished?
Depression didn't interfere with Lincoln's cognitive abilities. He wasn't psychotic, or overly superstitious. Its not a good example.

There are also many forms of it. It does not mean all who suffer from it, are delusional, and neither does it mean that some that might be prone to delusional disorder have hallucinations either.
There you go. Now you're getting somewhere. Religion is far more compatible and influenced by hallucinations and superstitious delusions. Not so much depression but it does show up when Jesus implores you to be self loathing to follow him. Jesus as a character is quite morose. That's depression.

I attend an Anglican church sometimes, and yes they welcome many who suffer from from mental illness. One chap in particular, I know, lives like a homeless person , attends the soup kitchen, talks to him self sometimes. I know he is actually quite well off, and have talked with him many times. Yes, he has his moments where he is not very clear. But when clarity visits him? He is one of the most intelligent persons I have ever met. So, I am supposed to throw out what he says, because he has dark periods?
Good point. Someone like this is likely suffering from schizophrenia and this is the kind of person religion finds its inspiration from as long as his hallucinations and delusions are about God, Jesus, and so on. A guy like this would be a saint.

Historically, a very sick individual was Simoen of Styles probably makes your friend seem mentally healthy by comparison and yet his insanity promoted Christian dogma so well that his mental illness built that part of the foundation of Christianity.

The Church of England is simply recognizing facts. And also that many talented people, have suffered from one form or another.
The Church of England is recognizing facts from brain science that are just too compelling to ignore. Even the Catholic church after 500 years of hard thinking was forced to accept Galileo's scientific findings.

1/23/2015 4:25:13 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

iyamwutiyam
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Quote from clarencec:
Unlike other apostles of Jesus, Paul never met him in the flesh, and may resultantly have felt a sense of inferiority in this regard. In his book "Jesus: A Very Jewish Myth", R.G. Price suggests Paul may have surmounted these feelings by drawing on a literary technique common to apocalyptic authors and lending himself apostolic authority by claiming to have had a vision of the risen Jesus.
This literary technique is a euphemism for a psychotic experience. The bright light Paul saw before his seizure indicates temporal lobe epilepsy.

The same sort of technique is used in the book of Daniel, where a fictional prophet based on an ancient mythical figure has visions explained to him by the angel Gabriel.
Very interesting. One hallucination explaining another. Self reinforcing delusions is found everywhere in religious writings.

It's a powerful technique. Many modern fundamentalists lap up Daniel's "visions" and believe they're all about present day politics, even though the book is a late work, written circa 164BCE that recounts what was known past history at time of writing. Given the strong possibility that Paul was using this literary device, it is quite impossible to diagnose him as suffering from hallucinations based solely on his writings. I'm afraid psychoanalyzing Paul with any degree of accuracy would have to be a Doctor Who job.


Using hallucinations as literary devices is quite common in belief systems filled with superstition. Priests, preachers, pastors do it all the time in their sermons.

1/23/2015 4:46:34 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness 
clarencec
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.
Quote from iyamwutiyam:
This literary technique is a euphemism for a psychotic experience. The bright light Paul saw before his seizure indicates temporal lobe epilepsy.

If Paul fabricated the vision story to boost his profile as a bona fide apostle of Jesus, then there was no psychotic experience. A personal interview with Paul would be necessary to assess the likelihood of a mental problem. Good luck with that.

And the psychiatric team who wrote Sail's study apparently don't go with the temporal lobe epilepsy hypothesis.

St. Paul lived during the first century CE. It has been speculated that his religious experiences resulted from temporal lobe epilepsy. We would argue that it is not necessary to invoke epilepsy as an explanation for these experiences.
http://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.neuropsych.11090214

1/23/2015 5:22:02 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

iyamwutiyam
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Quote from clarencec:
.
Quote from iyamwutiyam:
This literary technique is a euphemism for a psychotic experience. The bright light Paul saw before his seizure indicates temporal lobe epilepsy.

If Paul fabricated the vision story to boost his profile as a bona fide apostle of Jesus, then there was no psychotic experience.
If that were the case then Paul is using a psychotic experience as a literary device. Paul is either suffering a mental illness or using a symptom of mental illness as a literary device.

A personal interview with Paul would be necessary to assess the likelihood of a mental problem. Good luck with that.
Not at all. Paul is telling the account as his own experience and many biblical scholars consider Paul to be the actual author.

And the psychiatric team who wrote Sail's study apparently don't go with the temporal lobe epilepsy hypothesis.

St. Paul lived during the first century CE. It has been speculated that his religious experiences resulted from temporal lobe epilepsy. We would argue that it is not necessary to invoke epilepsy as an explanation for these experiences.
http://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.neuropsych.11090214


Did you miss "it is not necessary"? You did miss it. And I agree its not necessary as you see what follows:

He endorsed an abundance of sublime auditory and visual perceptual experiences (2 Corinthians 12:2–9) that resemble grandiose hallucinations with delusional thought content.

His perceptual experiences, mood variability, grandiose-like symptoms, increased concerns about religious purity, and paranoia-like symptoms could be viewed as resembling psychotic spectrum illness

There is no disagreement that Paul is quite mentally ill.

1/23/2015 5:34:03 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

rufftreasure
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I can't stand Paul

1/23/2015 6:08:41 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

sail_dancer
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Quote from iyamwutiyam:
There is no disagreement that Paul is quite mentally ill.


Your whole post was good and I agree with you on Paul's mental problems.

Peace

1/23/2015 8:42:08 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness 
mrhankchinaski
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About 15 years ago I bought a copy of The Anti Christ by Neitzche.

I read some of it and then over the years it got lost in my travels.

It was interesting.

I've never had much interest in the biblical writings attributed to Paul.

The one thing I took away from Neitzche's writings was his admiration on how the real message of Jesus could be so uplifting to the poor and downtrodden.

I remember one part about how elevating it could be.

Neitzche however is really critical of Paul.

The whole book is an outline of how Neitzche thought Paul perverted that message.

I think he actually calls Paul a crank. Lol.

Anyway it did get me thinking.

1/23/2015 11:22:23 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

isna_la_wica
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What we today call mentally ill. Back then it was just being possessed by the devil which only enhances beliefs in superstition. Mental illness back then then in this way provided a foundation for religious delusions.


But Judaism does not teach a Satan. They taught a "adversary with in man '.


This is a good example of superstition. Someone acting strangely was believed to have been controlled by an imaginary being.


So?Are you daft?

What we look as being "imaginary today, was not back then.


Depends on the mental illness. The term mental illness is too vague. There are too many to consider.


Holy crap bat man, this guy is whacko, it is bloody well you that claims those that believe are mentally ill. Then you turn around and qualify what mentally ill means?


Depression isn't psychosis or schizophrenia. It isn't temporal lobe epilepsy or a parietal tumor. Depression did make Robin Williams kill himself. Jesus essentially did the same thing in a different way. Suicide by cop


So according to you, every one who ever died for a cause, was committing suicide?.


Depression didn't interfere with Lincoln's cognitive abilities. He wasn't psychotic, or overly superstitious. Its not a good example



Acording to you he was. He never joined a Church, but he did say he followed scripture.


There you go. Now you're getting somewhere. Religion is far more compatible and influenced by hallucinations and superstitious delusions. Not so much depression but it does show up when Jesus implores you to be self loathing to follow him. Jesus as a character is quite morose. That's depression.


Just your opinion is all. Nothing in this statement you can ever prove.

Good point. Someone like this is likely suffering from schizophrenia and this is the kind of person religion finds its inspiration from as long as his hallucinations and delusions are about God, Jesus, and so on. A guy like this would be a saint.


But you never countered my case, that one from now days cannot take standards from today, and diagnose. All ya did ego man, was use insinuation to back up your argument.

Really, is this the best you can do?

Historically, a very sick individual was Simoen of Styles probably makes your friend seem mentally healthy by comparison and yet his insanity promoted Christian dogma so well that his mental illness built that part of the foundation of Christianity.

The Church of England is recognizing facts from brain science that are just too compelling to ignore. Even the Catholic church after 500 years of hard thinking was forced to accept Galileo's scientific findings.


Make up your mind will ya?

You say, all who believe are mentally challenged , then in the next sentence claim, they follow Scientific findings?

1/24/2015 4:50:20 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

sail_dancer
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Quote from isna_la_wica:
So?Are you daft?

What we look as being "imaginary today, was not back then.



Come on Isna ..... do you really believe that what we today consider imaginary ..... was not imaginary back then?

We use these scriptures to teach religious followers in today's world ..... why should these teachings keep 2000+ year old views about what is imaginary or not imaginary?

According to dictionary.com:

im-ag-i-nar-y


adjective

1. existing only in the imagination or fancy; not real; fancied:
"an imaginary illness; the imaginary animals in the stories of Dr. Seuss."


Why are the imaginary gods, angels, demons, heaven. and hell not considered imaginary based on this definition? ..... Is it because religions don't consider them to be imaginary? ..... what gives religions the right to change what words mean just to protect their nonsense dogma?

Why are followers of the desert god of Abraham dogma afraid to evaluate characters being used as examples by their religions in today's world ..... based on today's world standards?

Peace

1/24/2015 5:08:47 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 
clarencec
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[Edited 1/24/2015 5:10:30 AM ]

1/24/2015 5:49:04 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

sail_dancer
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Quote from clarencec:


Who are you waving at Clarence?

Peace

1/24/2015 6:21:50 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 
clarencec
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Quote from rufftreasure:
I can't stand Paul

The McCartney one is good though. Some people decry his contribution to the Fab Four and say Lennon was the serious talent. I disagree and would put the value of their relative songwriterly contributions at 37.5% each with George supplying the remaining 15%. Mind you, I thought it was a bit off when Macca wanted to reverse the songwriting credits on songs he composed to read "McCartney Lennon". That seemed egotistical.

I'll Follow the Sun - Beatles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Uk_6WWy0RA



[Edited 1/24/2015 6:24:48 AM ]

1/24/2015 6:26:39 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 
clarencec
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Dodgy maths. (Counting furiously on fingers during edit time)

1/24/2015 6:32:23 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 
clarencec
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Quote from sail_dancer:
Who are you waving at Clarence?

Peace

Anyone who reads this stuff.

1/24/2015 6:41:08 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

iyamwutiyam
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Quote from isna_la_wica:
What we look as being "imaginary today, was not back then.


I plumb fergot. If you believe hard enuf it gits real.


You say, all who believe are mentally challenged ,
Of course. If you believe in a fiction as a fact then you are mentally challenged. You can't be too bright if you're superstitions and adhere to nonsense as a form of wisdom.

then in the next sentence claim, they follow Scientific findings?
In retarded way in much the same way you comprehend statements. It took the Catholic church centuries to lift the inquisition's ban on Galileo works albeit censored. It took centuries more for a pope in 1992 to issue a statement of regret for how it handled Galileo case. It took quite a few decades after the Jewish Holocaust for the church to lift the official declaration that Jews as race were responsible for killing God.

1/24/2015 8:03:15 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 
mrhankchinaski
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Galileo was a good catholic.

1/24/2015 9:06:16 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

iyamwutiyam
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Quote from mrhankchinaski:
Galileo was a good catholic.
Why?

1/24/2015 9:13:08 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

sail_dancer
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Quote from mrhankchinaski:
Galileo was a good catholic.



The inquisition didn't think so.

Peace

1/24/2015 9:20:50 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

turkalurk82
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You are what you are, and I would bet money that you have mental health problems yourself, iyam...


1/24/2015 9:24:29 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

turkalurk82
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Wow, Iyam, you are just plain intellectually challenged. You don't even seem to understand half of the points that you argue against! Hahaha



[Edited 1/24/2015 9:24:54 AM ]

1/24/2015 10:16:26 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

iyamwutiyam
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Not a difficult concept grasp unless you're mentally infected. Its impossible to defend religious fiction believed as fact other than its placebo effect.


Having religious delusions does affect how the mind works.




The Church of England would like to have mental illness be used as tool to reinforce religious delusions. Basically if Jesus, John the Baptist, St Paul, St Francis were mentally ill then its not only no problem but validates it.




1/24/2015 11:25:22 AMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

turkalurk82
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All this talk of psychiatry, have you sought professional help for your malignant narcissism? Sociopaths have mental problems, too! They can be just as harmful as the religiously deluded. It doesn't matter what a crazy person chooses to believe or disbelieve. You can't reason with a nut job!

If you are so concerned with mental health, maybe you should have yourself assessed!



[Edited 1/24/2015 11:25:45 AM ]

1/24/2015 12:13:35 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

rufftreasure
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I agree, Iyam seems obsessed with being right, while completely full of feces.
Very rude and doesn't appear capable of lovin his brothers and sisters.
He is as bad as those he condemns.

He still hasn't answered my question . Iyam are you a professional??
Rude ,means and condescending to all but Sail.



[Edited 1/24/2015 12:14:00 PM ]

1/24/2015 12:15:09 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

rufftreasure
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Quote from sail_dancer:


The inquisition didn't think so.

Peace


But, the inquisition didn't get him, as in they didn't kill him in the end.

1/24/2015 12:34:13 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

sail_dancer
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Quote from rufftreasure:
But, the inquisition didn't get him, as in they didn't kill him in the end.


No ..... they gave him a life sentence in jail.

Peace

1/24/2015 12:37:47 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

rufftreasure
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Better than torture and death, eh???

1/24/2015 12:49:29 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

isna_la_wica
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Quote from rufftreasure:
I agree, Iyam seems obsessed with being right, while completely full of feces.
Very rude and doesn't appear capable of lovin his brothers and sisters.
He is as bad as those he condemns.

He still hasn't answered my question . Iyam are you a professional??
Rude ,means and condescending to all but Sail.


This hunt for the mentally ill here, remind me of Don Quixote and Sancho. But instead of tilting at Giants they think look like wind mills, they run around tilting at those they claim are mentally ill because they disagree with them.

The only difference being, at least Don and Sancho had Rocinante to assist in a combined IQ pool.

Anyway;

"My psychiatrist told me I was crazy and I said I want a second opinion. He said okay, you're ugly too."
Rodney Dangerfield

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/crazy.html#pgTRDsc7F8TkuBz1.99

1/24/2015 1:12:33 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness 
mrhankchinaski
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Quote from sail_dancer:


The inquisition didn't think so.

Peace



He was still by all accounts a pious and devout member of the Catholic church.


Would you consider him mentally ill Sail?

1/24/2015 1:31:43 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

iyamwutiyam
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Quote from mrhankchinaski:
He was still by all accounts a pious and devout member of the Catholic church.


Would you consider him mentally ill Sail?


Probably necessary to pretend piety to not be tortured to death instead of being put under house arrest for the rest of his life. One more thing to piss off totalitarian theocratic clergy would have put him to death.

1/24/2015 1:35:33 PMChurch of England embracing mental illness 

iyamwutiyam
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Quote from rufftreasure:
Better than torture and death, eh???


So its ok to be put under house arrest for life? Too bad your nice form of rudeness isn't against such an injustice and making you incapable of lovin a brother from a distant past.